King Tiger losses in the west

[JasonC]

On another thread, a question arose about a KT KO claim, and it set me looking for information on German losses of King Tigers in the west. I have come up with the following accounting, which I think is exhaustive.

The loss figures below refer to tanks dropped from unit strength rolls, aka "total losses", and are from all causes, including irrepairable breakdowns and abandonments.

In Normandy - 15

In Central France, late August - 15

In Operation Market-Garden - 10

In Aachen-Hurtgen fall fighting - 15

In Ardennes Offensive - 30

In Central Germany, April - 35

Total KT losses in the West - 120

Claims outside of those occasions are not confirmed by German records. I hope this is interesting.

[Michael Dorosh]

Might be more interesting with a figure for total numbers employed, and in which capacities? Are these 5% losses or 120% losses?

[JasonC]

I don't see what "in what capacities" has to do with anything. There were an additional 35 King Tigers that fought in the west at one point (through part of the Bulge), but lived to be transfered to the east, and were KOed there. Besides those 35, the KOs in the west and the King Tigers used in the west coincide, naturally.

It is not like Germany is still in the war with a fleet of 300 King Tigers remaining. All of them were taken out at some point, east or west - the only question is where and when. The above is all of the "where" and "when", facing the western powers.

[offtaskagain]

I think he means how many were operational during each particular timeframe, and which unit they were deployed with.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

I don't see what "in what capacities" has to do with anything. There were an additional 35 King Tigers that fought in the west at one point (through part of the Bulge), but lived to be transfered to the east, and were KOed there. Besides those 35, the KOs in the west and the King Tigers used in the west coincide, naturally.

It is not like Germany is still in the war with a fleet of 300 King Tigers remaining. All of them were taken out at some point, east or west - the only question is where and when. The above is all of the "where" and "when", facing the western powers.<hr></blockquote>

heehee

You're not answering the question! How many KTs did the Krauts have is all I want to know. I am presuming that they weren't squandered as mobile OPs, command post vehicles, or other uses (this is what I mean by "capacities"). You did drop the ball on the Sherman discussion by including Sherman tanks used in regimental/squadron headquarters troops/squadrons, I am just wondering if it is possible you are making the same mistake with the KTs.

I know nothing about the employment of KTs, or the numbers they were fielded in, which is why I ask, as the numbers you present seem to be quite interesting - given a little context?

So - oblige me, dammit!

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Battlefront.com]

I did a quick single source search for info:

The 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion was the only Tiger formation in Normandy to have KTs. Initially it had 12, but then received 14 more during the battle. This was about 1/2 strength. Most were lost during the fighting and encirclement

1st SS Panzer received 14 during the retreat through France. All were said to have been lost.

So, add Jason's two loss figures for this time period and you come up with 30 lost out of 36 deployed. Looks like that checks out.

The 506th Heavy Tank Battalion was the one that fought at Market Garden and all the way until the war ended in the West. It received a total of 75 King Tigers during this time period.

The 501st SS was issued 28 and was deployed during the Bulge. It received 11 more at the expense of the refitting 509th, but 9 broke down prior to the offensive. 13 were lost during this time in the West. 20 KTs out of 52 total deployed (506th and an another company were there) were lost in total, but only 5 due to enemy action (the rest broke down or were abandoned).

Another 17 were tossed into battle at the end of the war by the 510th and 511th Heavy Tank battalions.

I show a total of 173 KTs deployed in the West, 120 of which were lost. That is a loss rate of 70% if these numbers are accurate. A total of 489 of both types of KTs were produced. Meaning 25% of all KT losses were in the West.

Er... hope that helps whatever discussion you have been having

Steve

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]</p>

[Michael Dorosh]

Exactly what I was looking for, Steve, thanks. Given the number of Sherman-equipped regiments that were "detanked" in Normandy and beyond, it looks like attrition rates for vehicles were as high as they were for infantrymen.

Wonder how crew survivability was for those big cats.

[Gen-x87H]

I am curious as to the amount of damage these uber cats produced? I know the fernindad was blasted as a pile o crap. But then some people found some confirmed kill stats for them which gave them something like a 10 or 15:1 kill ratio.

I am curious if the uber cats were truely uber or just plain uber or not uber at all.

Gen

[Battlefront.com]

Generally, the Tiger crews were hand picked veterans. In fact, many Tiger aces became well known for massive enemy destruction prior to manning their first Tiger. This was true for other vehicles, such as the Jagdpanther and I would assume Elephant. Therefore, even if they had been placed in the same tanks as the "regular" German tankers, they probably would have racked up impressive kills.

Most of the losses of big stuff in CM can be attributed to "user error". I suspect that if you took the cream of the crop German side CM players, and gave them a situation that was somewhat likely in the real world (i.e. NOT going up against Jumbos and 95mm HEAT rounds!), they would do just fine. Even considering that the game itself pushes players to suffer higher losses than their real world counterparts would ever endure before quitting.

Steve

[JasonC]

If your figures for the 506th's total KTs received is correct (75), then the losses should be 20-25 higher, 140-145, with the other 20-25 lost between the Bulge and the late war period, by the 506th. The total KTs in the west would be 175-180.

A possible source of confusion here, however, is KG Hummel, a Tiger I company-sized formation which was later added to the 506th as a 4th Tiger company (during the Bulge - 18 December), but retained Tiger Is instead of KTs. So the issue is total Tigers vs. KTs, in the 506th, after its changeover to KTs (for Ko 1-3 only, all it initially had). The 4 Ko was transfered back out of the 506th in February, and ended the war under the 106 Pz Brigade.

The additional 5 KTs I have for Normandy were in Panzer Lehr, having been transfered to that formation from one of the Funklenk units in June - sPzKoFkl 316. This unit only had Tigers at all, rather than StuG, from Feb 44 to June 44, and only 5 of them were KTs. They were turned over to crews in Panzer Lehr, and the Fkl. crews sent to the rear to go back to StuGs.

On the subject of SS KTs lost during the Bulge, I think the true figure is higher than the 5 claims. That may be total write offs due to enemy action, net of cases recovered but later abandoned due to the same damage.

I say this because I can identify the following SS KT loss occasions in the Bulge - (1) a platoon of 4 KOed by 4 US 76mm towed ATGs on a slope overlooking a town near the tail of Peiper's column, firing from ambush; (2) 2 KTs KOed leading an attack on a US held village, knocked out by 90mm AA guns, at the head of Peiper's column; (3) at least 1 KT M-killed by infantry with zooks and then set alight after dosing it in gasoline, not with Peiper's column, but in the SS Panzer sector in front of the Elsenborn position.

Additional occasions in which some loss was possible, but not certain include - (4) at least three occasions in which AT mines knocked out leading tanks, often two in a row, in columns known from other reports to have had SS KTs; (5) at least two occasions of successful air attack on columns known to contain SS KTs, in which some vehicle kills were scored (including at least one by 60 P-47s simultaneously). In these cases the KOs may well have been other types, but it can't be ruled out that KTs may have been among the losses.

I believe 14 King Tigers went with Peiper and none survived - some reports have erroneously reported the whole battalion was with him, when in fact it was probably one company. Up to 8 KTs may have been among the 28 tanks Peiper still had left at the end when he abandoned his vehicles. At least a pair of those were certainly KTs, because they fought a couple nights before. Those would have been listed as "abandoned" - so might any that were M-killed by mines, recoverable after air attack but not in fact brought back into service before the lines moved, etc.

But my figures for total losses in the Bulge are not based on those combat reports, but on the same sort of unit returns you were using. Basically, 90 went in and 60 came out, with Peiper's column accounting for about half the losses. There were also a few Tiger Is from 506th's 4th company and from one Heer Fkl. unit. And to round out the heavy armor, 2 sPzJgr formations that had Jadgpanthers also took part in the Bulge.

I hope this is interesting.

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]</p>

[Capitalistdoginchina]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Generally, the Tiger crews were hand picked veterans. In fact, many Tiger aces became well known for massive enemy destruction prior to manning their first Tiger. This was true for other vehicles, such as the Jagdpanther and I would assume Elephant. Therefore, even if they had been placed in the same tanks as the "regular" German tankers, they probably would have racked up impressive kills.

Steve<hr></blockquote>

Looks like good justification to only have veteran crews or higher available in CMBB for such Ubertanks??

Well, just a thought!

CDIC

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]</p>

[dumrox]

What does "M-Killed" mean? I've seen that term in two separate threads recently and hadn't, to my knowledge, seen it in a year of daily lurking.

[JasonC]

Sorry, I should have explained it. "M-kill" is short for "mobility kill", and means "immobilized". With the added implication that the immobilized tank is out of effect action. Less commonly used is "F-kill" for "firepower kill", meaning a vehicle has lost the ability to use its main armament. I hope this clarifies what I meant.

[Durruti]

Quote:

-------------------------------------------------

'The additional 5 KTs I have for Normandy were in Panzer Lehr, having been transfered to that formation from one of the Funklenk units in June - sPzKoFkl 316. This unit only had Tigers at all, rather than StuG, from Feb 44 to June 44, and only 5 of them were KTs. They were turned over to crews in Panzer Lehr, and the Fkl. crews sent to the rear to go back to StuGs.'

-------------------------------------------------

There is disagreement over the employment of Tigers by Panzer Lehr. Helmet Ritgen (commanded II Abt of 130 Panzer Lehr Regt.) is adamant that no Tigers of any sort saw action with the division. He claims in 'Die Geschichte der Panzer Lehr im Westen' that the Tiger I's initially supplied were replaced by the first five production KTs (Porsche turret) but that they were so prone to mechanical failure they were 'scuttled' at Chateaudun to prevent capture. He says the Fkl Ko fought in the Tilly area with nine StuGs plus the Borgward BIVs.

However other sources ('German Remote-Control Tank Units' - M Jaugitz, 'Tigers in Combat Vol 1') claim the KTs fought in Chateaudun as static 'pillboxes' against the Americans. A photo in the Jaugitz book shows a couple of these KO-ed tanks surrounded by US troops with what look like penetrations in the turret side. Still other sources ('La Panzer Lehr Division' - Jean-Claude Perigault) cite a Panzer Lehr strength return for June 44 still showing three Tiger I's with the Division so Ritgen, as a sub-unit commander, may not have known the whole story.

[Jeff Duquette]

The 316. Pz.Kp. (Fkl) did not bring its Tiger II tanks to Normandy. These vehicles were actually prototypes with technical deficiencies and it was ordered that they should be sent back to Germany. Since the rail net was damaged and the transfer

of these vehicles had low priority they remained in Chateaudun. They were subsequently blown up to avoid capture.

H. Ritgen, Die Gechichte der Panzer-Lehr-Division im Westen 1944-1945 (Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart 1979)

[Jeff Duquette]

Zetterling’s strength returns for Lehr include no Tiger I’s other than the Jun 1, 44 strength return which also includes the 5 Tiger II’s (All eight vehicles being organic to 316th Pz.Kp. (FKL) at that time). Unfortunately Zetterling does not detail the activities of 316th Pz.Kp. (FKL) aside from a brief note regarding the battalion buried in the write-up for the 302nd Pz.Kp. (FKL). To add insult to injury W. Scheinder details the activities of the 316th Pz.Kp. (FKL), but has no write-up on the 302nd Pz.Kp. (FKL).

[JasonC]

I am perfectly willing to believe the 5 KTs given to Lehr did nothing. They still come out of the production total, however. They are KTs made that didn't KO T-34s or what not. So I think they belong in an accounting of "King Tiger losses in the west".

[History Buff]

My view is: With the Normandy part, it depends on the fact, was Rommel successful is gaining King Tigers for his beachhead? Remember Hitler divied up the armour between himself and Rommel. Rommel wanted all armour avaliable under his command. If he sucessfully bidded (which he didn't) there would o been a good chance a fair counter attack could of driven the allies out of normandy with a full armour thrust. I put money on that Hitler kept most of the KT's back to "defend the fatherland." If Rommel's divisions had KT they would be few and far between.

About that comment that KT's were sent to fight the Russians, I can see the validity in that statement. With the partial failure of Market garden, the british were no longer making a strong advance, Especially with the caustious Montgomery, and the Yanks were engulfed in the Battle of the Bulge. THough the russians were advancing along the eastern front towards Berlin. I'm sure the KT's were transferred to try and stem the advance, but with few in number compared the Russian armour their success is questionable. Remember the Yanks were way of Berlin by April, and that it was Patton's charge that really gave the yanks a tast of eastern germany.

My 2 cents

Interesting research though :cool:

[Måkjager]

One , two , three...here we go this may raise a few eye brows.....

Kingtiger employment and losses in the West 1944-45

Service in France June-August

Pz Kompanie Funklenk 316

The first unit to be issued with the KT in the West was Pz Kompanie Funklenk 316 attached to Pz Lehr Div. They received the first 5 KTs produced in March 1944 .

On the 15.07.44 the 5 KTs are deleted from the inventory of the Pz Lehr div....the KTs crews assigned to 1./PzAbt 302 ( Fkl).

These now 5 crewless KT began a wandering rail trip which eventually stopped at Chateaudun where they were employed in the defence of the city against the advance of the US Army.

During the course of employment over the following days all 5 are lost.

Vehicles Numbered. 02 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13

No.12 & 13 adandoned on the night of 17.08.44 --12 set on fire.

02 ,10 and 11 make their way to Varize......11 breaks down on the way and is left behind.

02 & 10 make it to Varize....10 then breaks down and 02 attempts to retreive it a short distance. 10 is blown up . The last remaining KT 02 makes its way to Janville. Just before Toury it sufferes damage to its final drive. 02 is abandoned by it crew.

5 KTs lost-self destruction/irrepairable damage. 100%

sPzAbt 503-NORMANDY Mid June

HQ Plt - 3 Tiger 1

1./sPzAbt 503 - 14 Kingtigers

2./spzAbt 503- 14 Tiger 1

3./spzAbt 503- 14 Tiger 1

Total 45 vehicles

Of the 14 KTs in service with the 1st Kompanie most are lost in mid August. On the 13.07.44 while towing KT 113 , KT 112 suffers failure....towed then by KT 124.

On 16.08.44 KT 124 goes kaput.

On the 18.07.44 one KT(122) is disabled by Lt. Gormon who rams it with his Sherman , 2 KTs ( 101 , 111 ) are Ko , KT 100 falls into a bomb crater and cannot be recovered. KT 100 , 111 , 113 and 122 are blown up by demolition crews.

20.08.44 the KTs 112 & 124 are also demolished by crew memebers. 1st Kompanie has no tanks on this date..... 1st Company relocated from Pontoise to the Germany.

14 KTs lost mostly to crew demolition.

3./sPzAbt 503 receives 14 KT ( two with Henschel turrets) on the 31.07.44

2 KT suffer gear box damage during a propaganda demo.... they are left behind in Mailly Le Camp.

12.08.44 The12 KTs are entrained , train attacked by allied aircraft....KT 311 lost..it rolls off and over turns...its possible to upright it but its captured by the US Army on the 13.08.44

11 KTs arrive in Paris , KT 334 breaks down and is blown up by it crew.

The 10 remaining KTs see combat service in the Pontoise sector between the 12-24.08.44

During this time the majority of the KTs are put out of action (9) by aircraft and are blown up by their crews.

The one remaining KT makes it as far as Amiens where it has to be destroyed by it crew.

The 2 KTs at Mailly Le camp are saved.

The sPzAbt 503 is issued with 45 new KTs along with the 2 saved from France. Battalion shipped to Hungry 12.10.44

10 KTs lost-self destruction -capture 71.42%

2 KT handed over to 1./sSSPz 101 14.28%

2 KT survive - Mailly Le camp 14.28%

1./sSSPzAbt 101 - France

Issued 14 KT at Sennelager 20.07-01.08.44

Transported by train to area 30km NE of Paris 18.08.44

1./sSSPzAbt arrives NW of Paris 20.08.44

23.08.44 KTs ( 4 ) support counter attack by Luftwaffenfieldregimenter 33 & 36

2 KTs ko....one by TD Batt 749 , the other by a ATG.

25.08.44 - 2 KTs from sPzAbt 503 incorporated into 1st Company- Strenght back to 14 KTs.

26.08.44 - 1st Coy. supports counterattack of 18th Luftwaffe FD. One of the ex 503 KTs is abandoned in front of a town after receiving numerous hits.

Evening operations - One KT ko from flank attack by ATG.

KT 124 abandoned after tipping over from near miss by two aircraft bombs.

28.08.44-Attack towards Montgison- lead KT -total loss after numerous hits. A second KT is abandoned after receiving tow hits.-Unit strenght now 9 KTs

29.08.44- Ambush by Pak Front- 2 KTs immobilised- cannot be recovered and are blown up.

A 3rd KT number104 gets involved with Shermans- slight track damage- driver turns too sharp- final drive failure- Crew demolishes the KT. This tank is now at Shrivenham.UK

Strenght is 6 KTs

30.08.44 - KT 111 ko by British Shermans on road D 981 to Gissors

02.09.44- KT 113 runs out of fuel- vehicle abandoned.

04.09.44- 2 KTs fall out.

05.09.44 KT 121 abandoned on the road to La Capelle due to lack of fuel- crew demolish gun and set of charge( this vehicle is now in the Münster Panzermuseum.

The remaining KT makes it back to Germany-Augustdorf.

Combat Strenght 14+2( 2 ex 503 Pz )

Combat losses- 5 35.7%

Abandoned/demolished 10

Survive 1

Number of KTs in France -June-August

Pz Kompanie Funklenk 316 5

1stKompanie 503 Abt 14

3rdKompanie 503 Abt 14

1stKompanie 101 SS Abt 14

Total 47

Loss 44

Survive 3

% Loss of Production run 8.87% working on a figure of 496

sPzAbt 506 with Kingtiger in service-Holland-Belgium-Germany

Issued 45 new KTs between 20.08-12.09.44

24.09.44 - KT ko by PIAT Oosterbeek

01.10.44 - KTs( 4 ) KO

07.10.44 - KTs ( 3 ) KO by TD Batt 743

20.10.44 - KTs ( 2 ) returned to factory for major overhaul.

17.11.44 - KTs ( 4 ) KO- 3 burn out from strong Artillery barrage

28.11.44 - KTs ( 2 ) KO- 1 by702nd TDB( 2AD)

15.12.44 - KT captured by 129th Ordnance Battalion

18.12.44 - KT ko - point blank ?

19.12.44 - KT ko near Bastogne

24.12.44 - KT ko

25.12.44 - KTs ( 2 ) destroyed by Allied aircraft.

03.01.45 - KT ko by AT gun

13.01.45 - KTs ( 2 ) lost- One final drive failure other KO with 8 direct hits.

17.01.45 - KTs ( 2 ) destroyed by their crews

05.03.45 - KTs ( 8 ) lost of which 5 have to be blown up by their crews.

08.03.45 - KTs ( 2 ) No fuel - destroyed by crew.

26.03.45 - KTs ( 2 ) Blown up due to suspension damage.

01.04.45 - KTs ( 3 ) Blown up in front of the Siege bridge.

04.04.45 - KTs ( 3 ) Blown up after breakdown during a 100km road march.

06.04.45 - KTs ( 8 ) Blown up- lack of fuel.

11.04.45 - KT ko near Mahmecke.

12.04.45 - KTs ( 11 ) Blown up- lack of fuel.

Issued/Due to be KTs 70

Loss KTs 65

Combat KTs 25

Destroyed KTs 40

Others 5

From the above it can be seen that 65 appear on its loss sheet. On the 12th March/45 a transport of 13 KTs were sent to the 506th Abt. Of these 4 were used by rear elements of the 116th Pz Div / KG Dunker in Beckum. Lacking fuel they were used in the static role. That leaves one KT outstanding ???????.

Total losses of KTs during MARKET GARDEN amount to 8 KTs with 2 returned to factory for major repairs.

sPzAbt 507- Germany

Between the 9-22-31/03/45 sPzAbt 507 obtained a total of 21 KTs.

Details of KT losses are sketchy due to the unit also having 6 Tiger Is on strenght but the folowing is known.

31.03.45 - KTs ( 3 ) ko in an ambush near Hamborn.

11.04.45 - The last 2 KTs are handed over to Regt. Holzer ...one KT breaks down...crew killed by US soldiers(?)

It is difficult to account 100% for what was actually lost , where and when due to my source not mentioning weather it is a Tiger or Kingtiger being lost at the time. The figure of 21 KTs is also open to debate as from the 22.03.45 there are 15 KTs on strenght...but there is no mention of where or when the other 6 KTs arrrive.

Taking the information at hand once the 3 KTs which were ko on the 31.03.45 , that leaves 18 "Tigers" in service with the 507th. Minus the 6 Tiger Is we arrive at 12 KTs.

Between 02.-11.04.45 these 18 "Tigers" suffer the following losses.

02.04.45 - Ko ( 5 ) "Tigers"

03.04.45 - Breakdown "Tiger"

05.04.45 - 2 damaged "Tigers " left behind in Borgholz. A 3rd "Tiger " is raked by a fighter.

06.04.45 - 1" Tiger" damaged

07.04.45 - 1 "Tiger" blown up by crew after running out of ammo.

08.04.45 - 1 immobilised "Tiger" destoyed by fighter bombers.

09.04.45 - 4 "Tigers" ko by Phosphor grenades.

11.04.45 - The last 2 KTs are handed over to Regt. Holzer ...one KT breaks down...crew killed by US soldiers(?)

I am not even going to attempt to do the % on this

Its late....i need me sleep.....will do my best to getthe info on the other formations ie sSSPzAbt 501 etc

as soon as possible....though i do know

3./sPzAbt 510 - Germany

The 3rd Kompanie is ordered to report to Henschel factory in Kassel....pick up 6 KTs.

Komp. formed into 2 x 3 KTs Plts.

02.04.45 - Vollarmarshausen- KT ko with hand held AT weapon.

17.04.45 - The Komp is disbanded....remaining KTs ( 5 ? ) abandoned.

3./sPzAbt 511 - Germany

The 3rd Kompanie is ordered at the same time a 3./510 to report to Henschel factory in Kassel....pick up 8 KTs.

Minor action in Kassel region. Some of the KTs make it to the harz mountains.

Panzergruppe Paderborn - Germany

March-24.45 - 9(?) KTs

12.04.05 - All vehicles lost or inoperable

sSSPzAbt 501 -Ardennse Battle of the Bulge.

26.11.44 Total of 34 KTs on strenght.

02.12.44 sPzAbt 509 ordered to hand over 11 KTs to sSSPzAbt 501. Full strenght at 45 KTs.

18.12.44 KT - "105" immobilised backing away from AT hits, reverses into a house and gets stuck. Vehicle

abandoned in Stavelot.

18.12.44 Technical damage to KT 332 on th Trois Points-La Gleize road junction. Vehicle abandoned.

KT "008: abandoned by crew near Trois Points- later immobilised by its crew.

19.12.44 KT "222" ko near bridge in Stavelot . KT "104" which becomes immobilised before La Gleize has

an encounter with US tanks- kos a Sherman.

22.12.44 KT hit by 90mm AA gun in right drive sprocket...crew abandons vehicle.

22.12.44 KTs ( 211 , 213 ) ko in La Gleize.

22.12.44 KT "133" takes an accidental hit in turret ring- driver turns tank around- hydraulic failure

vehicle abandoned

24.12.44 KTs "204 , 231 , 104 " on road to Gue - lack of fuel

25.12.44 KT "332" already abandoned is "ko" by a Sherman of 740th TB.

25.12.44 KTs '111 , 312" abandoned - one had suffered bomb damage from allied aircraft.

26.12.44 KTs ( 32 ) remain on strenght- 14-16 are operational , the others require maintence.

08.01.45 KTs ( 2 ) left behind to support 340th VG Division.

20.02.45 1st SS Pz Korps ordered to be transported by rail ( eventually to Hungry)

sSSPzAbt 501

Issued 45 KTs

Ko/lost 3(4?) 6.6%(8.8?)

Abandoned 11(12?) 24.4%(26.6%?)

Others 2 4.4% - These are the 2 left with 340th-VGD

Survive 30 KTs 66%

Counting the above we get a total of 46(?) KTs....not sure where the extra KT comes from.

In summary

So taking the above information we arrive at 200 Kingtigers employed/deployed in the West- covering

Normandy-France-Ardennse-Arnheim-Germany etc.

The majority of the Kingtigers that wer lost seem to be due to abandonment/self destruction due to inability to recover.

I am bleary eyed at the moment so please forgive me if i have made a mistake or two

It would seem that approx. 33 KTs 'survived" ie the 30 from sSSPzAbt 501 and the 3 KT from France(...though i am sure they were also eventually lost)

200 deployed

167 lost 83.5%

33 survived 16.5%

I will let somebody else work out the combat and abandonment loss %.

I need sleep after 7 bloody hours puting this together.....and i should be making mod!!!!!!!!

Regards

Måkjager

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Initially it had 12, but then received 14 more during the battle....1st SS Panzer received 14 during the retreat through France....36 deployed.<hr></blockquote>

I hate to be the one to have to break this to you, Steve, but 12+14+14=40. Or did you mean to write something else?

Michael

[PzKpfw 1]

316 FKL in April 1944 consisted of 5 Tiger II (2 operational), & 3 Tiger E (3 operational). As of May 1944 the Kompanie consisted of 9 Sturmgeshutz III, 3 Tiger E, & 5 Tiger II.

The July 01 1944 strength return shows 3 Tiger II & 3 Tiger E. On July 02 1944, FKL 316 was renamed FKL 302. 302 then turned over its 5 Tiger II to Panzer Lehr, & was refittited at Reims with Stugs.

Lehr then employed the Tiger II in fixed positions, at Chateau Dun & Drieux. All 5 Tiger II were lost, either in combat, or blown up, by their crews.

As to Tiger II employed on the Westren Front below are the strength returns by month for Tiger II only:

June - Aug 1944:

316 FKL - 5 Tiger II

s.Pz.Abt 503 - 12 Tiger II

1.Kp. s.SS.Pz.Abt 101 - 14 Tiger II

1.Kp. s.Pz.Abt.503 - 14 Tiger II

October - Dec 1944:

s.Pz.Abt 506 - 45 Tiger II

s.SS.Pz.Abt. 501 - 45 Tiger II

March 1945:

s.Pz.Abt.507 - 21 Tiger II

3.Kp.Pz.Abt.510 - 8 Tiger II

3.Kp.Pz.Abt.511 - 8 Tiger II

The Ardennes offensive was the highwater mark for Tiger employment in the West, with 123 Tiger E, Tiger II, & Sturmtiger on hand as of 15. Dec. 1944, as of 30 Dec 1944, the strength had declined to 116 Tiger's of all types.

As of 15 January the strength returns show 102 Tiger E, & Tiger II on hand in the West operating with, FKL 301(27), s.Pz.Abt.506(44), & s.SS.Pz.Abt.501(31).

Regards, John Waters

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]</p>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

I don't see what "in what capacities" has to do with anything. There were an additional 35 King Tigers that fought in the west at one point (through part of the Bulge), but lived to be transfered to the east, and were KOed there. Besides those 35, the KOs in the west and the King Tigers used in the west coincide, naturally.

It is not like Germany is still in the war with a fleet of 300 King Tigers remaining. All of them were taken out at some point, east or west - the only question is where and when. The above is all of the "where" and "when", facing the western powers.<hr></blockquote>i was not aware that all the king tigers were "taken out" where did you read this?it simply is not true, most of the ones that were counted as "knocked out" were simply abandonded by their crew due to running out of fuel and ammo and not being able to be resupplied, the western allies simply had no reliable way of knocking out these tanks without an attack from aircraft, and why bring the soviets into this conversation? their armor and assault guns were completely superior to that of thewestern allies, your talking about apples and oranges

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Generally, the Tiger crews were hand picked veterans. In fact, many Tiger aces became well known for massive enemy destruction prior to manning their first Tiger. This was true for other vehicles, such as the Jagdpanther and I would assume Elephant. Therefore, even if they had been placed in the same tanks as the "regular" German tankers, they probably would have racked up impressive kills.

Most of the losses of big stuff in CM can be attributed to "user error". I suspect that if you took the cream of the crop German side CM players, and gave them a situation that was somewhat likely in the real world (i.e. NOT going up against Jumbos and 95mm HEAT rounds!), they would do just fine. Even considering that the game itself pushes players to suffer higher losses than their real world counterparts would ever endure before quitting.

Steve<hr></blockquote>

i agree

[Jeff Duquette]

In the initial post on this thread a claim of 15 Tiger II’s being knocked out in Normandy is indicated. I can find mention of only 12 Tiger II’s ever being present with any Schwere PanzerAbteilung during the Normandy Campaign. These twelve Tiger II’s were present with the 1st Kompanie of the 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung.

It is possible that 2 of the Tiger II’s from 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung may have survived Normandy/Falaise and were turned over to 1st Kompanie 101st SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung around St. Souplettes/Limay…Near the Seine 25/8/44. These two Tiger II’s are mentioned in the 101 Abtl’s history, but curiously no mention is made in the 503 Abtl’s history (W. Schneider’s Tigers in Combat I & II). In Panzer Aces II there is mention of at least one Tiger II from the 503 Abtl. surviving Normandy (The TC of this sole survivor was apparently none other than Kurt Knipsel). I’m curious if anyone can verify the survival of either one or two Tiger II’s from 503’s original allotment in Normandy.

Although 14 Tiger II’s were issued to 1st Kompanie of 101st SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung at the end of July and early August they apparently never made it to Normandy but were diverted to Mailly-le-Camp. 1st Kompanie (Tiger II equipped) doesn’t see action until 23/8/44 when it becomes involved with counterattacks against the US 79th ID’s bridgehead of the over the Seine River (near Limay).

No Tiger II allotments are indicated for the 102nd SS Schwere PanzerAbteilung for the Normandy Period. First Tiger II’s issued to this battalion appear to have been around 27/12/44.

Fourteen Tiger II’s were also dispatched to the 503rd Schwere PanzerAbteilung in late July but apparently did not arrive in time for Falaise. One flips over during in air attack on its transport train 12/8/44…2 Break-down in Mailly-le-Camp 11/8/44 (these are eventually railed back to Germany)…1 breaks down and is blown-up by its crew in Paris …9 are knocked out (or damaged and subsequently destroyed by crew) from air attacks in the vicinity of Beauvis, France (North of Paris) 12/8/44?...the last Tiger II breaks down and is destroyed by crew in Amiens 24/8/44.

[Jeff Duquette]

Jeeze!

Anyway it seems that: "I have come up with the following accounting, which I think is exhaustive." might really mean..."I got tired of internet searches so I sat down to watch TV."