To Grid or Not to Grid! Discuss this inside.....

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aszurom:

The hex terrain was a joke, duh. And I thought it was pretty damn funny too. Laugh, dammit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Aszurom - I had quite a chuckle when I saw it. And your work is appreciated, although I won't DL it, b/c I think it means a loss of immersion. The maps I have created would just not feel right with a grid on them, and that for me is a major reason not to DL it. Keep up the good work.

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Andreas

[swamp]

ehehe, I think hex lines would only make sense if cm had a hex based rather than grid based engine

anyway very funny screenshot!

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

We ought to use that hex overlay to win over Steel Panther's fans..... I got a good laugh out of it...hehe

[iggi]

Aszurom, thanks for the grids. Some people don't realise that maps have grids and topo lines.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kestrl:

I agree with Mfred,

I think its all about winning for most people and getting the greatest advantage, they don't want a challenge or use any strategy and when they win its just a hollow victory. I don't really care if people use this Grid terrain because i won't be playing against them in a PBEM game.

I enjoy the historical part of Combat Mission and wouldn't use something like that. I also believe PBEM game will suffer because people are using grids. I don't think its realistic or historic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Kestrl is right. I know that for me, winning is the only thing that matters. If I can win without it being any kind of challenge, so much the better. A lot of times I just make up my own scenarios against the computer where I do not even give the computer any forces, so I win immediately every time.

Sometimes, I would give the computer like a single jeep or something, but I found I would have to go find it, and that seemed like strategy, so I quit doing that!

I am certain that, like me, the vast majority of people who would use gridlines to see what you could see in real life are whinging poms, who have no desire to be challenged at all, which is why we all shelled out $50+ from Comabt Missions to beign with.

Jeff Heidman

P.S. - For the humor impaired amongst us, the former was firmly tobgue in cheek. Any resemblance to a serious post was coincidental and unintentional.

[chrisl]

How did you get a tobgue into your cheek?

[Kestrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I think Kestrl is right. I know that for me, winning is the only thing that matters. If I can win without it being any kind of challenge, so much the better. A lot of times I just make up my own scenarios against the computer where I do not even give the computer any forces, so I win immediately every time.

Sometimes, I would give the computer like a single jeep or something, but I found I would have to go find it, and that seemed like strategy, so I quit doing that!

I am certain that, like me, the vast majority of people who would use gridlines to see what you could see in real life are whinging poms, who have no desire to be challenged at all, which is why we all shelled out $50+ from Comabt Missions to beign with.

Jeff Heidman

P.S. - For the humor impaired amongst us, the former was firmly tobgue in cheek. Any resemblance to a serious post was coincidental and unintentional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would rather have a good battle or operation and lose. I want my PBEM or just regular games to be historic and if i want a better look at a hill or something like that i'd move the camera closer to the ground. I think if i wanted grids i'd play some other game.

I like simulations/games that are historic and i don't think grids on the battlefield are very historic and if everyone who posted likes grids thats fine but its just not my thing.

[pcelt]

Is there any posibility that it might be possible to have a grid imposed only on those "above" views in order to have a map -like feature to achieve clear terrain awareness---but at the lower eye view levels the terrain was ungridded and the battle would need to be fought with a combinstion of insights from a gridded map allied with lower down non-gridded battlefield views.

This is a solution that i would find very acceptable in terms of realism and aesthetics.

[Sailor Malan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcelt:

Is there any posibility that it might be possible to have a grid imposed only on those "above" views in order to have a map -like feature to achieve clear terrain awareness---but at the lower eye view levels the terrain was ungridded and the battle would need to be fought with a combinstion of insights from a gridded map allied with lower down non-gridded battlefield views.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good to me.

I mostly stuck this reply in to say "Wow, 107 posts on this one (108 now), I think there must be a minor interest in this!" Oh, and relatively little machine gunning of posts! Well done guys

The point of my post (somewhere back on p2) is that we have an immersive, almost simulator type of experience, that is not a first person shoot em up, but is a proper wargame. In wargaming circles it's a "figure battle", not a boardgame. It seems a pity to bend CM back towards a Boardgame. I think some people are looking for Steel Panthers with simultaneous movement. Now, don't get me wrong, I like SP, played it lots (1,2, and 3), but it is a boardgame. CM is more a total life experience (joke). Seriously, i think that what ever is done, grids on views 1,and 2 would spoil it for me, and I wont use them. If that means I will be beaten more (and I am not convinced it will) so be it, I am playing this for the total experience. Wanna win? easy, Tiger11, vs M4 75mm, 1000m, go. Want an experience somewhat nearer RealLife? play in views 1 and 2 without grids.

Wow, you guys must have hit a nerve here, I sound like a zealot. (I'm not really, it's just I am really into the immersive experience - Well done BTS)

Parting shot - famous last words "It's been a couple of minutes since that Tiger got my Sherman through that gap in the buildings, probably moved, and he was 1000m away anyway, it's safe for the Firefly to cross the gap ......CRACK..BOOM. Oops"

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The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

Aszurom, thanks for the grids. Some people don't realise that maps have grids and topo lines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iggi, I think maybe there is simply quite a different approach to this by the two camps. I actually don't see myself playing on, but playing in a landscape, a piece of terrain.

I fully agree with your statement about maps, and I have been trained a long time ago to work with the UTM grid. But in CM I don't have a map, it is different. And a grid would ruin that for me. Maybe a lot of the people who don't like it see it the same way I do, I don't know.

Jeff, if you have time, can you let me know how you manage to beat the AI when it has a jeep? I find that exceedingly difficult, and if you know any cheat codes to do it, I want to have them too.

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Andreas

[mfred]

Well you know what will happen with people using Grids. WE will have to loose the Victory Locations.

Just picture it, opponents will race for Hulldown locations around VLs, and the Army's will be defeated by boredom while waiting in ambush for the opposition.

Or we will have both sides going around the map perimetre trying to outflank the opposition waiting in Hulldown.

Sounds like a game of catch-me-if-can.

[Mark IV]

So, the existence of two deeper camps is revealed.

Beneath the grid non-grid controversy are the Groglodytes pitted against the Uber-achievers.

Groglodytes see CM as primarily combat sim, and emphasize immersion, realism, and strict historicity, regardless of outcomes.

Uber-achievers see CM primarily as a game, and will use the rules and tools they are given to maximize their kills (and ladder standing).

Most of us probably fall between the two camps, but have "leanings" one way or another. Personally, I would like to kill as many of my opponents as possible within the context of historical accuracy.

What a great game, to appeal to both mindsets!

[iggi]

I've had to pull out the old red filtered flashlight at night in the woods looking at a map in reality, trying to figure out where the hell I was. So why not in CM?

Real maps even have cherry orchards on them. Sorry, realistic to me does not equal simulating a dummy in the field.

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

I actually don't see myself playing on, but playing in a landscape, a piece of terrain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andreas, well put. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[iggi]

It's not the grid lines that hurt reality, it's view 2,3 and 4. You should have a FOW option to have those turned off.But then you will go back to the same arguement as before. That is players with more time can just check out different views over and over.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just picture it, opponents will race for Hulldown locations around VLs, and the Army's will be defeated by boredom while waiting in ambush for the opposition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly believe there is going to be NO resulting advantage to using the grid. I PROMISE you I can find a hull down spot just as quickly without it. The only thing grid will do is accentuate the appearance of the terrain contours. This is pretty much a non-issue, on the topic of advantage. There is none.

it comes down to personal preference....

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

It's not the grid lines that hurt reality, it's view 2,3 and 4. You should have a FOW option to have those turned off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I think that would make the game unplayable for me. I need the 2,3 and 4 views. There is a problem that very often you can not actually see something from view 1 even when your unit has clear LOS to it. This is b/c of the nature of the sprites and models, and can probably not be helped. It makes it necessary to move forward a bit, and that takes even more time.

As Cpt. Foobar says, it the grid is most likely not something that conveys an advantage on the average player, and it is a matter of personal preference. I don't care if someone I play against uses it or not. I won't.

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Andreas

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is b/c of the nature of the sprites and models, and can probably not be helped.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. The game's 2D monitor cuts out situational awareness that you would have in reality. Same thing. Again, it's not for measuring distance,( a paper marked with tick mark suffices). It's to give you a better 3D feel. Something that your eyes or binoculars would give you anyways.

Plus I think it looks really cool. I will be using grids.

John

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Ok time for me to chime in again,

some of you have called people that would use grids "people that would win at any cost" ....I find that insulting, I also find it unfactual!

Some of the "realism fanatics" harp on "realism this and realiism that" but forget that no matter what THIS IS a game. These players have no problem spending an hour or two to make one move with one unit - Im not suprised that PBEM games take so long and so many shy away from ICQ; and god forbid TCP IP is a bad word!

What I really don't get is how realistic is it to use your zoom feature? How realisitic is it to use any view but 1? How realistic is it to try and look at the map from a couple angles to determine where the gradient in the layout is going. I mean this goes on and one to the point of absurdity! I don't understand how its ok to take 36 hrs to make a turn all because these players want to make sure they made the right choices -- and THAT isnt gamey or unrealistic?

At first I wasnt for or against it, I had an open mind - While posting my original post tho it seemed whether I liked it or not I wouldnt have any problems with others using it.

Since that time I've tried it. I feel in a position to clear some things up

1. Your opponent will gain NO addvantage by using the grid other than speeding up his turn a little.

2. This super instantaeneous hull down argument is baseless... sorry if you try to hull down without going to view one to tweak you will get smoked or not have a shot!

3. back to the lack of realism see above

4. As far as distance calculations being super easy ... wrong answer that ain't happening--- In fact I could get range with the los tool much quicker that trying to calc the math, which would be involved in using the grid overlay (the overlay is not simply the tile eddges as it appears)

Conclusion,

I think that people should be left to make their own choices --- this isn't like editing units or something for chrissakes! This really is what i predicted it to be and what Madmatt claims it to be an "AID", no more no less. It's easier on your eyes it maes set up go a little faster, and unimportant moves a little more accurate due to the fact it isnt necessary to tweak every single move. If ya want hulldown tho by god you better use view 1.

I am an honorable player, I hate cheaters , I hate players always tring to play some grey angled BS!

This really isnt an advantage other than by personal preference.. aesthetically it doesnt look as real but being able to see the lay of the general lay of the terrain witthout zooming all over the map is a huge plus for PLAYABILITY.

You guys that are bashing everybody I suggest that you at least try it before condemning everybody ... back up your directory load it up and see that your arguments are unfactual. Then just reload you back up directory to the way you like your game, with the knowledge that no one is getting over on you!

Im sorry if anyone takes this post wrong it isnt intended to offend, although I do take issue with those that question peoples honor over a playability issue, and encourage these people to try this before slamming everyone!

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

SS, you nefarious little toady!!! What is this disgusting posturing you are doing!!!!

The honor of all grid-likers is in your hands!!! If you lose to me,all grid-likers lose. So you had better shore up your faltering nerves, because all of these poor misled souls are counting on you!

And besides, it would really be a buzzkill to find your men simply whimpering in their foxholes when I get to them. Pull yourself together man!

And to you grid-not likers, wish me godspeed in this holy crusade. I will crush SS PL, and all of his hopes and dreams.....

(disclaimer: If you cannot see that this post is in jest, you should see a head doctor)

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Ahh squeaks for me infamous CAPT FLUBBER the warrior maiden in a french maid outfit, tell me how goes the house work in the provinces of Lorraine?

You demand only ICQ and you squirm and duck like a grub on a hook, wiggling yourself off into oblivion! You can bob and weave all you like I have a bead on you with my superUbergrid and your numbers all over it it DIE SWINE!

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*:

And to you grid-not likers, wish me godspeed in this holy crusade. I will crush SS PL, and all of his hopes and dreams..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go Foobar go! Show him what real man are made off, and it ain't grid-lines.

Please note, all smilies on this iBook have been sent on a map-reading course in outer Mongolia.

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Andreas

[Aszurom]

I guess I'm the only "official word" here, since I *made* the damn thing. That said, let me tell you a few things of interest...

1. The people who are anti-grid are spouting all this speculation about what advantages it bestows upon you. The fault to their argument is that they've never actually looked at the thing other than in screenshots. Thus, the substance of their entire argument is based on wild speculation.

2. The only advantage I get from my creation is that from the #3 view I can determine "that's a hill, these woods are on a slope, and there's a little dip over here that I could probably move through and not be seen." I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a magic hull-down tool, because it just ISN'T. If you'd actually used it, you'd know that. How do I go hull down? I let the grid make me aware easier that there's a suitable spot for it in the general area, then I get a tank over there and go to the #1 view... jockey around a bit until the view out of the spot looks like it should be hull-down and then I lay a waypoint there for Mr Tank. Once I've actually located the terrain feature I'm looking for, the grid is of no further benefit.

[dalem]

The grids are absolutely awful in my opinion and I would never use them.

Hmm. Re-read the above and realized I should be more clear, given some of the other posts I've read. I think the grids look awful, but I don't think they would convey any advantage either way. I just don't see the need for them and so wouldn't want my enjoyment of the game reduced for no reason. And since I haven't read all the posts here, maybe I'm panicking needlessly, fearful of being forced to look at grids when in fact they could be optional.

So for me it's purely an aesthetic thing as far as the grid concept itself is concerned, but I still can't help but wonder what the hell anyone would need them for.

-dale

[This message has been edited by dalem (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Joe Shaw]

"Mr. Tank"

Is that like a Mister Coffee only with a barrel? I've been following this thread forever and I STILL don't get it. It's like the man said, there is NO ADVANTAGE involved other than a little time. It's not like the grid suddenly starts strobing in bright orange for the perfect hull down location. I just finished a turn in which, from the "6" view (talk about your advantages, I can look straight down and you can't ... oh wait, you have that too, hmmm) there was no obstruction to the LOS. I used the LOS tool (Hey I can also check the LOS without getting down to the "1" view and you ... nope, you've got that too) and saw this sudden hump in it (Do NOT go there!). So I went to the "3" view ( ... nah, you get the point) and saw one of the ubiquitous QB pyramids right in my LOS! With the grid I'd simply have seen it quicker. THAT'S IT. THAT'S THE BIG ADVANTAGE. This is the most non-issue thread I've ever seen. If you don't like grids, don't use them, but don't believe for a second that someone who uses them is gaining an advantage 'cause it ain't so! For the record, I don't use the grids because I prefer the way the game looks without it. But it's MY CHOICE.

And SS .. I agree with you, to suggest that using grids is akin to a "win at all costs" attitude is absurd and insulting.

Joe