To Grid or Not to Grid! Discuss this inside.....

[Bastables]

Hmm I think I'll have to go Seanachai on this one. He has some pretty damming evidence. Its obvious I did not really think my position thru and will therefore retract my statement that the eyes are connected to the brain. Forgive my moronic statement

[Sailor Malan]

For what it's worth, I think grids would completely ruin the game. If you want to play a wargame, go play one. In lots of them you can count movement to the inch, add up the firepower to get just the table you want, set up the assault to get the magic 3:1 etc etc. For me, most of the point about CM is you DONT do that. I dont have trouble with ranges (LOS tool), or hills (view at 1, and ROAM THE LANDSCAPE when in doubt!!!). I am playing CM because it wont let you do all the traditional nasty gamey things.

(BTW I have a record of being beaten at games cos I wont do the gamey things, so that shows where I come from).

If you like I will set up GA (Grids Anonomous), where you can come, introduce yourself (first name only), but then you have to say 'I experiment with grids', before we will help you! For those who relapse, we will have Steel Panthers available!

<Rant mode off>

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The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Actually the eyes are the only external sensory organs which are direct outgrowths of the brain. They aren't like the ears etc where nerves link them to the brain. They are actually direct outgrowths.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Fionn I know when I want tactical advice where to come. And I know when I want medical advice, to go, well, anywhere else!

Bruce

[Guest rune]

As the designated Poopoo Head, I have to say that I don't like the grid. I think it takes away from the feel of the game, and reminds me way too much of hexes. As opposed to American football fields, I tend to think of them as a lot of soccer fields. While I will not personally use them, they could be a good training aid to a new player. Does this give advantage in a multi-player game? It has the possibility of doing so...

Now, if you will excuse me, I must finish getting my referee garb on...I have a soccer tournament to referee in. You have not seen combat until you have centered a soccer match.

Rune

aka Poopoo Head

10 cool points to anyone who knows why the soccer field is called a Soccer Pitch.

[von Lucke]

I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me realism, or give me --- eh, well, I'm not gonna go that far...

When I got Panzer General, Steel Panthers, East Front, et. al., the first thing I did (after turning off the music) was turn off the hex grid. I have little problem determining elevation or range, and the addition of a grid system --- especially one that is an either/or set-up --- would be more of a distraction than an aid.

But hey, so long as it's not made an integral part of CM, feel free to do as you wish.

Oh, and CPT Foobar: You da man!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

10 cool points to anyone who knows why the soccer field is called a Soccer Pitch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B/c the term football is already taken for the American version of Rugby?

On-topic: don't like the grid, doesn't feel right. Not sure about the advantage while playing - guess it mostly is in time needed for planning, not necessarily in quality of outcome.

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Andreas

[Mark IV]

I just went back and took another look at the grid pix on CMHQ... it's really nicer than I first gave it credit for (once I got past the "ick... hexes" stage).

I don't like the look of unit bases, but they're handy on occasion (and GOT is no gamier than bases, LOS tool, etc.). I guess I'm a neutral on it. I like innovation and applaud the effort. But since GOT can't be toggled, it's not for me.

[Roushman]

Uh, Hunter:

As a fellow physician, I can tell you that Fionn knows where of he speaks when he talks about the neuroanatomy of the eyes.

Fionn:

What's your specialty? I'm a family doc myself. Do you have folks who tell you they can't understand why a physician would have wargaming as a hobby?

Roushman

[Juju]

"I cain't Grid no... Satisfacsjun, ah-heyheyhey, that's wot I say!"

Hmmm. I don't see myself downloading this. Finally there's this game (CM, of course) where you get to put your nose on the ground if you wanna know what's going on. IMHO the grid would ruin the immersion...

[Mike Oberly]

I don't see anything at all 'gamey'about it-it simply helps one absorb the information which is already available.But I won't use it unless we have the ability to switch it on and off-it's a nice utility,but I wouldn't want to look at it constantly.

Mike

[MrPeng]

just took a look at hq. naht gunna doit at this time. wouldn't be prudent. ah think we will bomb saddam though. he ehahe. he is a menace to the regional stability and has wepons of mass destruction. can't let him get away with it. the wepons. naht at this time.

looks kinda silly. the grids. just mah apinion, naht tryin ta argue with ya here. on this grid thing. just dont like em. sure. you can use em. think we need some consensus on the bombing saddam but we also will unilahtlerly bomb him because we can. saddam has the grids too. naht good for the region. naht in our national intrests for him to have that grid. saddam having the grids. naht good. really gunna have ta bomb him. ahr allies in europe can and have and can have the grid and are free to use it. we will naht use it unless it the grid is in ahr best intrests of ahr nation. no grids is good grids in mah apinion. just a little humer 'no grids is good grids' ahuhehahehuh.

G.H.W.B.

[Los]

MrPeng,

You are odd but I'm LOL!

Los

Ok so it's clear, those miserable creatures that download the grid should be burned in the deepest pits of hell while those that eschew this crutch should be elevated to the highest pinnacles of ghod-like status.

Los(the most)

(Sorry can't help having fun)

[Dienekes]

I've thought about the grids and I think they make the game more realistic. If you were on the battlefield you would be able to see with your own eyes good hull down positions. There is of course no pixellation or low resolution images with your own peepers. In an abstract way it gives you proper vision. In real life you would always be in camera 1 with a map. Plus you would be ******* bricks.

[Joe Shaw]

I'm sorry, I just don't see it (get it? SEE it? Man I crack myself up). You know I've been following the logic of the Spanish Inquisition on this thread NO ONE Expects the Spanish Inquisition! (stop that, it's silly) and I just don't get it.

We already have laser rangefinders (LOS tools), if you're creating the PBEM QB you can discard every map you do until you find one that's just right (i.e. just wrong for your opponent), you can follow your projected path and see if you ever come into the enemy LOS before you actually move there, you can view the battle from anywhere on the map including directly behind the enemy positions and you can set the terrain parameters in a QB to give you the advantage. Yet there is no great hue and cry about these tools. What is it about the grids that's such a big deal? It simply will NOT give that much of an advantage if it gives ANY advantage at all. Trust me, if someone else is using the grid, it doesn't automatically mean you're dead He's not dead, he's resting (Right, I've warned you then).

Joe

[Los]

In all seriousness now, you know it shouldn't be the job of the player to have to figure out how to get individual tanks into hull down position, no more than it is to decide when to fire off smoke discharges on a tank. That's a tank commander (AI) issue. The player should designate "go hull down over here" with a mouse click and the TC will figure out if he can get his tank into hull down within the vicinity (within reason of cours) and then do it himself. Because even with this grid players will be spending time doing sonmething that *really"* is outside the scope of his command level.

In away I do this now with the hunt command because if a tank is crawling along on hunt and begins to crest a hull down position it stops automagically in more or less hull down (If the AI TC wants to live) and engages. Now we need this done in non-threat situations too.

Cheers...

Los

Los

[jgdpzr]

To grid, or not to grid...

Put me down in the "not for me, but I don't care if my opponent does" camp. Judging elevation in the game is not that hard for me, because I don't mind playing from the 1 and 2 views. And I prefer the look of the game without a superimposed grid. But if my pbem opponent uses grids, I don't care because, like Joe, I really don't think it provides any unfair advantage.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Okay time for me to wade in with my opinion.

CM is an outstanding attempt at creating a realistic recreation of a WW2 battlefield. The biggest problem I had when I first got my Beta copy was that I could not "see" the lay of the land. As a former MI guy, terrain analysis is our bread and butter. If you can't analyze the terrain properly you are missing some important information.

So, being an artist I tweaked the colors of the terrain tiles until we ended up with what you see in CM today. This dramatically improved the look of CM and improved the ability to "see" the ground.

Yet I still had problems seeing all the subtle elevation changes. Until CM has real time shadows and shading, this will always be so.

The grid, for me, works wonders. You have to remember that you are not a Platoon Sgt on the ground where you can see every dip and rise. You are a Company or Battalion Commander trying to lead your force. To do this effectively in real life, the Army gives you an aid (called a map) that has every dip and rise outlined beautifully for you. Now, we do not have this in CM, so what is wrong with having a grid to help out? I, for one, do not like getting down to view 1 for every unit on the map, especially for a large battle.

This is just my opinion, and I mean no disrespect to those of you who differ with it, to each his own. I also do not believe that the grid is some "wonder" weapon that will suddenly make every player play like Fionn. It may help them "see", but they will still play like they always have, and will still be beaten if they play poorly, grid or not.

Bil

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

OK, I guess its time to settle this. I wanna start a quick battle with a grid user. But only if you use ICQ, I dont sit around all day checking the email. "naht gunna doit."

So, any grid loving ICQ users, show yourself and we will settle this battle betwen good and evil once and for all.....

-Foobar

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Ok time for me to chime in :

1st and foremost I haven't downloaded the grid yet, but I am thinking about it.

1. For all that think the grid is gamey I strongly disagree, to me this is the same argument that think an overall unit roster is gamey!

point in case: this information is already present and there is nothing stopping me from getting it within the game............

EXCEPT: TUNS of TEDIOUS time spent trying to get it! This is why I dont play big games!, not that I dont want to play bigger battles I just don't have the patience to micromanage every unit when there are 200 of them! I feel Im missing out on this aspect of the game .. but my playing is imparied on bigger battles because checking every single detail at view level one is VERY time consuming I simply don't have that kinda patience .. to me that says something because in close combat I was known for taking a LONG TIME in a game.... Some of my more epic battles took 5 1/2 hrs with a good opponent ie LT STAHLER I think JEBC and I had some long ones as well as HUNTER and several others IIRC

which brings me to my next point and this one scares me!

2. TCP/IP ..... right now it seems tough to get to anyone to commit to a game on ICQ which speeds up exchanges! THIS IS VERY DISHEARTENING as I love playing this game! I'm hearing I dont want to rush my moves .... I dont have time....etc etc ... so on and so forth

What the heck is gonna happen with TCP IP? This is something that is gonna destroy it before it starts IMO. If there are not some tools to speed up gameplay .... (note the keyword here that some seem to forget GAME, yes it is a game) Then nobody will be playing much TCP that is a HUGE BUMMER for me and Im sure it will be for others if we are having trouble geitiing a TCP IP match!

on to the unrealisitic issue......

3. players are saying it looks unrealisitic... I say so do the edges of my monitor . So does the feel of having to alter my view with my hand instead of my neck and eyes! SO is being able to "ZOOM IN" ....\

for those of you who will now counter by saying the word "binoculars" I have to say this as Im not an expert nor a grog but I do know for sure, that EVERY single unit in the field DID NOT have "binoculars" so by that argument no more zooming guys!

now to the unfair advantage.......

4. I simply don't see it .. what edge are they getting that other players that can spend 5 hrs on a turn cannot gain also? All the info can be derived on field .. to me its JUST AS GAMEY to take tuns of time and measure every possiible angle from every unit and look at every possible outcome of every situation. Whats the diff here guys?

In comclusion........

I guess of convinced my self that it is a legitimate addition, whether I will like having it or not I don't know .. But odds are I will try it for the main reason of SPEED of play .... this is one discouraging thing for me I CANT GET ENUFF DAMN CM IN A DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

whew ...... I feel better now

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 07-22-2000).]

[SS_PanzerLeader]

FOOBAR LET me down load the grid and I will play

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

well, SS PanzyLeader, you look like the perfect contestant. You are pro-grid, and an ICQ user. Go download those silly gridlines, and we will put this to the test, on a very hilly map, combined arms, 1000 point meeting engagement. I dont care which side I use.

(foobar throwing down)

[Guest Madmatt]

This may be the first thread to top the 20 posts mark and not turn into a Flame Fest. I thank all the participants.

Let me stir the pot up a bit and just say that Bil Hardenberger has done up a newer version of the GRID that is even less obtrusive and more subtle. At a distance it begins to blend into the landscape and doesnt show up screenshots so much, although in game you can still use it as a visual aid.

And thats the real point here. This is meant as an AID. Personally I think it looks pretty cool but I won't be using it in my POTDable version of Combat Mission (you dont want to know how many install of CM I have going!). But when I will be playing on a map that looks to have some tricky topography I just might.

While it is impossible to 'toggle' it on and off there IS another option. You can always load up the grid and begin your game. Do all the basic recon and scouting with it on, get a good feel for the terrain and then save the game. You can then copy the non-grided version back over and resume the game. Hell you dont even need to exit the game to do this.

I will be working with the author of the MDMP-Texture Manager utlity to try to include this functionality very soon.

FYI, The MDMP-Texture Manager will allow you to better organize all these numerous mods (not just ours either!) and pick and choose which textures and mods you wish to have running while you play the game. Future version will also allow swapping of sounds as well. We are looking at a Mac version of this tool but currently thats in the distant future. The MDMP-TM is planned to ship with a future version of MDMP.

Madmatt

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[Guest Madmatt]

One other point. I would urge the non-griders to at least TRY the grid and see. The screenshots dont do it justice. I hope to have the original DEFAULT CM terrain grided up by tomorrow and the file size will be very small.

Give it a try, if you don't like it thats fine. As I said, its just a tool to help some people enjoy the game more...

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex

Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing

[Airborne]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned--there are too many postings. In the modern military the grid square on maps is all important for navigation and adjusting artillery fire. I suspect there was something like it in WWII--but not sure. I probably won't use it in this game but I don't see a problem with it.

Chris

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne:

Don't know if this has already been mentioned--there are too many postings. In the modern military the grid square on maps is all important for navigation and adjusting artillery fire. I suspect there was something like it in WWII--but not sure. I probably won't use it in this game but I don't see a problem with it.

Chris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was in use at least in US Army for sure.

Now about the gamey question: of course a grid is a tool unavailable for soldiers in their foxhole. It's less certain for a battalion commander. So once again, the question belongs to the fact in CM you're both the soldier in his foxhole and the battalion commander. I would incline to consider for that it's not gamey. Now I find it's catastrophic for immersion feelings and it's for this reason I don't plan to use them. If switching is added, I will certainly use grid from time to time.

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-22-2000).]