Real War Video ****Not for the sqeamish*****

[Los]

That's pretty rich! I guess the Rebels just woke up one morning and decided to start killing Russians for no reason. You see them executing a prisoner, of couse you don't see what the Russians are doing to the Chechen population (though you could very easily download some more of the vidoes on that page and see for yourself.)

The point of those viedoes are that the Russians have already claimed after Grozny fell the figting over and the war won, none of which is true.

BTW the war makes for very interesting reading and research and there are plenty of places to start, both in hard copy and online such as:

(following links to FMSO)

or http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/

or www.stratfor.com

and in hard copy:

"The War in Chechnya (Eastern European Studies (College Station, Tex.), No. 8.) -- Stasys Knezys, Romanas Sedlickas; Hardcover"

(This is the bst one)

or

"Chechnya : Tombstone of Russian Power -- Anatol Lieven, Heidi Bradner (Photographer); Paperback"

or

"Chechnya : Calamity in the Caucasus -- Carlotta Gall, Thomas De Waal; Paperback"

Remember there's two sides to every story. And "The Russian Hell in 2000" is excellent combat footage. You will note that the "open" and "rough" terrain in the footage still presents plenty of opportunities for stealth and ambush, no need to hide in the deep forest.

As are some of the other links on that page. Some of the stories and photo albums make for interesting reading too particularly the Russian paratrooper company that was wiped out (confirmed in both video, picture and by the Russians themsleves a month back.) I also found interesting on the Muslim site the large debate and the official rulings they are using to justify the execution of Russian prisoners being in line with what the Koran says.

But then again there are bible thumpers in this country (USA) that could probably find similar justification for questionable actions also if they look hard enough.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-29-2000).]

[Valentaur]

Thanks for the input Los. I have to say I agree. This war is FAR from over, simply because the rebels won't quit until they are all killed. I can't believe the Russians are'nt aggressively running counter guerilla ops. The rebels seem to have far too much time to linger around after an attack. Where are the Hinds? Sorry about the off topic post, but this is real and happening now. I would bet that as I type, somewhere in Chechnya, someone is getting lit up.

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"The Russian Hell in 2000" is excellent combat footage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree on that. Like I said, all soldier should see this. Not because it's fun but because it's a part of reality and it opens eyes.

Sure there are two sides to the story but yesterday when I watched one of the samples, I saw the innocent Russian soldier who had surrendered executed. The guy had surrendered, why did they have to kill him. What if his mother sees that video?

The rebels are crazy to put stuff like that on the net. I didn't watch more videos cause I thought it was so pathetic to see how low these people were.

[dumbo]

Just to repeat another thread I just finished "My war gone by I miss it so" by Anothony Loyd. He starts in Bosnia and goes to Chechnya. Both conflicts are pretty vicious (warning this book is very graphic) but he reckons the war in Chechnya is much worse than Bosnia and I guess he would be in a position to know.

_dumbo

[Disaster@work]

Is anyone else having trouble trying to watch this on RealCrap player? Geez. It sounded interesting but first I have to upload to Realcrap7 and then it has connection probs. Is it even online anymore? Sigh.

Maybe I should let the Mujahadeen have some of my boss' technology

http://www.videoclipstream.com

(requires Java-enabled browser)

Apologies on tooting my company's horn.

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To download my scenarios: go to

http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm

[kunzler]

Well, as a propoganda vehicle, the videos are backfiring. At least in my case. Cold blooded execution of prisoners is not buying the Chechnyans any points (yes, I know atrocities are being committed by both sides).

The thing that gets me is, those prisoners most likely didn't volunteer for service in Chechnya and are not there of their own accord. They probably aren't even combatants, more like truck drivers. So what rationalization can there be for executing them, other than pure revenge? Revenge is not a proper reason to fight a war IMO and really taints their cause to me. The fact that it appears to be religiously motivated disgusts me even more.

[Los]

"Sure there are two sides to the story but yesterday when I watched one of the samples, I saw the innocent Russian soldier who had surrendered executed. The guy had surrendered, why did they have to kill him. What if his mother sees that video?"

You could just as easily have downloaded one of the other clips that shows Russian Massacres of noncombatant villagers and then you'd be up here decrying the Russians as brutal animals. It's flavor of the day...

And as for the Russian mom seeing her kid getting shot on video I think that's one of the points of the video. The Russian Army has been downplaying the fighting declaring victory or what not. The Chechens, are hoping that Russian Mom's seeing this are going to be up in arms against the government. It's standard target the population's sensibilities and they'll help end the war type stuff. I mean a parent is going to ask: "why was my son placed in such a situation without support, without armored escort and without sufficient number to be able to defend themselves. What kind of idiot mentality is in charge of fighting the war over there?" Already the Russian private organizations Soldier's mothers" (IIRC the name correctly) has been coming into direct confrontation with the Army over a number of things including the reporting of casualties. SM is tracking battle casualties through their organization from notifications of next of kins of battle deaths and already they claim that Russian dead alone far exceeds total punished casualty figures (killed wounded and missing) that the defense ministry is putting out.

RE: Rotary Wing operations in Chechnya, they have been found by the Russians to be very difficult. Here's at least one article:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj97/win97/thomas.html

Hinds, Hips and other standard Russian helos are pretty much obsolete at this point though there is some promise with the KA50s. The best performer of the war is actually the SU25 Frogfoot, their version of the A10.

As a rule Russian air support in general operates much better when performing interdiction strikes than it does with close air support since even Frogfoots lack effect night poor weather and limited visibility capabilities. About two months ago (IIRC the exact date) this led to a whole company of paratroopers being wiped out when the Russians we unable to get CAS in close when they needed it due to the weather conditions.

You can see in the video well after they have ambushed the convoy and taken whatever they need from it a HIP and a HIND passes over quite low and don't even see them. They could just have easily engaged and destroyed those two birds had they been feeling randy and or had the right equipment. No doubt air ground comms and guard net procedures are a little weak for the Russians also since it seemed way to late before the convoy got any help.

As a rule Russian firepower comes in handy when they're just looking to destroy stuff deep in the enemy's rear, bomb villages, or to interdict MSRs and other tgts, but when it comes to getting timely fire support close in to support troops on the ground in contact it's a different story.

They recognize this. Putin a few weeks ago announced a new policy where they will be severely curtailing funds to the missile forces/troops and putting the money into ground combat forces such as infantry since the war has shown them to be severely lacking in training and equipment.

Anyway it's quite interesting.

Los

[Guest dirkd1976]

I can't connect to it either.....damn Realplayer. I even downloaded the new Realplayer Basic 8, and it still will not work.....uggggg, Realplayer is crap I tell ya!!!

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Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway

[Phandaal]

The most disturbing footage was the execution of that wounded russian soldier. I'm sure it happens on both sides, but DAMN that was cold blooded. I felt sorry for that poor bastard. If they Chechens think that showing them executing prisoners is going to win them sympathy, they are more ****ed up then all those years of kidnappings, rape, and torture would suggest. I can't blame the Russian goverment for trying to stamp them out once and for all. I'm sure war crimes are rampant in that part of the world nowdays on both sides, but Chechens should be smart enough not to broadcast it.

-Phandaal

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

I also found interesting on the Muslim site the large debate and the official rulings they are using to justify the execution of Russian prisoners being in line with what the Koran says.

But then again there are bible thumpers in this country (USA) that could probably find similar justification for questionable actions also if they look hard enough.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-29-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Opening yet another can of worms, but I am betting that you would not even to have to look very hard to find biblical (especially Old Testament) support for all kinds of nasty things. And it would not be the first time.

The portion of Muslims making these justifications are hardly the first to use their religion to justify attrocity.

And for those who defend the execution of a prisoner by citing Russian attrocities, I ain't buying it. unless they knew that THAT prisoner committed a crime, their actions against him are beyond justification.

The bigest mistake the Russians are making is turning this into a secret war.

Jeff Heidman

[Pham911]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kunzler:

Well, as a propoganda vehicle, the videos are backfiring. At least in my case. Cold blooded execution of prisoners is not buying the Chechnyans any points (yes, I know atrocities are being committed by both sides).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The goal of this type of footage isn't usually to gain sympathy for the Chechnyans(or other rebles/terrorists). If they wanted that they'd show the Russians commiting acts which don't sit well with the general public(like most war acts don't when shown in detail).

The goal is to show that A)they have more control over the country than the Russians, B)that the Russians can't provide safety and stability for the population, and that C)Russian retaliation will only cause more of the same acts that are documented in the video.

Imagine that you're Russian, and are watching your own troops being butchered on video. It's the same as if you're American and watching US troops being executed. It doesn't sit well, and the goal of the rebels is to increase that feeling in Russia until thier demands are met.

Russia is finding the same problems that they had with Afganistan, and that the US had with Vietnam. It's nearly impossible to fight a "status quo" action in a country that really, really wants change, or even a country where a violent minority are dedicated to change. Quelling civil unrest is a tricky business. Quelling open rebellion is nearly impossible, as you just wind up driving more people to the rebels with every action you take.

[TZEENCH]

Well heres a small thing to think about- Please dont get me wrong

K this is type of warfare isnt really fair or nice- Rules go right thou the window. That "POOR" soul proably would have lived if he didnt fall down every 5 feet- He was a liablity and would have slowed down the group. They didnt excute the troops taken in the city- or the other guy at the truck scene.

If i was dodgeing a huge russian search party after an attack- Id shoot the guy my self if it ment my team got away. Its sobering that things like this happen but it wasnt cold blood murder.

[Los]

Since we're talking about that particular execution, if I put on my "alien-thought process Chechen guerilla fighter thinking cap" then I'm guessing that he was executed for practical reasons. (Notice that the other non wounded russian was taken along with them...at least until he could be interrogated?) You will note that he was seriously wounded. The guy could hardly walk, had one nice gash on his head but more importantly you will notice that nearly his whole torso on the right side was soaked through with blood. No doubt there was no way he was going to make the hump out of there and judging from other footage I say of Chechen first aid it didn't loo like they were too well endowed with first aid supplies to waste them on him.

I'm not justifying it just looking at it with a soldier's eye and trying to look at what they were thinking.

I would point out that despite what our western sensibilities believe, the vast majority of fighting that goes on around the world has always pretty much been conducted along the lines of what we see happening in Africa, Yugoslavia, Chechnya etc. Even most of WWII with the exception of Western Europe/North Africa was fought along those lines, and even in the west it didn't take much to break down the thin veneer of civility.

Cheers...

Los

[dumbo]

Sorry guys you have lost me. I happily wear my hat of "soft westerner" here. Executing a prisoner because he is wounded and will slow you down is NOT acceptable behaviour.

_dumbo

[Los]

I'm not saying it is acceptable, I'm only hypothesizing as to the most likely reason why they did it (outside of the fact that they can't stand Russians. Sorry if the conversation makes you uncomfortable.

Los

[iggi]

No it is not acceptable behavior. Where's the haig court now? That video is proof of murder. Why didn't they just leave him there or tie him to a tree?

This site should be sent to every magor TV site with that particular video as a link.

Is this new? How come we never hear about this **** happening on TV? Do the TV stations support US propaganda(Bill Clinton wishy washy avoid making a decision crap,no balls and no respect from the international criminals).

This crap is too close to Russia's back yard. It's Afganistan all over again. This is something Putin has to get a handle on. It could get complicated.

[iggi]

LOS I know you don't agree with what they did. I know you are studying thier train of thought.

As a common Joe, it definitely puts them in a bad light. You're right that the Russians will be upset for the lack of security.

What bozo Russian General is in charge? If they had spaced the transports with escorts, the troops can counterattack. The russians have alot to learn. Suprised that thier Afghan experience didn't help them.

[dumbo]

Los: It doesnt make me feel uncomfortable (well aside from seeing a man murdered in cold blood which obviously does) and in no way was I flaming you nor implying that in some way you approved of the murder.

Just pointing out that this is one instance where my basic wishy washy morality comes into play. I think Iggy pretty much laid out the alternatives available to them.

cheers

_dumbo

[Formerly Babra]

Hmmm... "Exclusive NEW feature on the Children of Iraq being Slaughtered by American Extremists"

And these clowns want our support? Gee, just look at all the wonderful things they've done for Afghanistan.

The moojies can all go to hell for all I care.

[The Commissar]

Personally, if it was up to me, I would crucify every Chechen women and child and torture the rebels themselves for days on end until they begged to die.

But Im biased cause I'm Russian and can't STAND seeing idiotic Russian war dept. "generals" sending young boys not much older then myself to die in idiotic assaults!

Seriously, you'd think there weren't any brains in the war area of Russia since Stalin killed them off before the Second world war.

Sometimes I think a teen like myself could lead these men better then some of those "generals". Their military doctrine seems to be "send in men and armorm "parade style" up a road until the poor bastards get bushwacked and half of them killed off. Afterwards, send in a heavy arty strike when all the guerillas have already fled the area".

Jusus, how HARD is it to train anti-guerilla troops? I'm buying several books on the subject as I write this to see for myself where exactly the great difficulty lies.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Valentaur]

Yeah guys, you all have valid points, I guess the secret to killing an enemy on the battlefield under any circumstances is the result of dehumanizing them in one's own mind to a point where the enemy is just a piece of equipment to be destroyed. As an ex-soldier myself, I guess I too thought about how I would be able to kill the enemy if ever called to do so, and I almost had to find out in Desert Storm. Killing prisoners, however, is wrong on many levels. First off, it takes away ANY option for the enemy but to fight to the death since your dead if you surrender anyway, and TWO, a wounded soldier absorbs far more resources than a dead one, so the strategic thing to do is leave the wounded alive to be a burden on the logistical system of the enemy. But the real reason in this case is to send a message to the russian forces that the rebels are in business despite what moscow has said. I have to wonder how many russain friends I have made on the web have ended up in that god forsaken place. I hope the russians get their act together soon, but I don't believe anyone in the history of the world has been truly successful against a determined guerrilla force...Time will tell. Anyway, this video just propaganda revisited, and it has'nt changed a whole lot over the years.

[Los]

"Is this new? How come we never hear about this **** happening on TV? Do the TV stations support US propaganda(Bill Clinton wishy washy avoid making a decision crap,no balls and no respect from the international criminals)."

Umm no offense but if you are relying on our mainstream media to educate yourself as to what actually goes on in the world you might as well dig a hole and crawl into it right now, you'd learn more.

Los

[Los]

"Personally, if it was up to me, I would crucify every Chechen women and child and torture the rebels themselves for days on end until they begged to die. But Im biased cause I'm Russian..." (Snipped for brevity)

Thanks for proving a point in this rather interesting discussion... Unfortunately the Russian miltary policy makers in Chechnya feel pretty much the same way since eth very earliest stages of the fighting and it has come through in the actions there for years now. It's no wonder the war has sunk to such brutality. Everyone over there is pretty much reaping EXACTLY what they have sown. If any one of you were Chechens you'd be doing the exact same thing as those guys on the videos though I don't expect you to understand it.

From a purely interesting military standpoint though, the Russians (per their usual SOP) are still stuck in the Soviet monolithic mode of thought that they can just steamroll over these "insignificant ill organized bandits" and just throw manpower and material at the problem, without regard for losses. They have been slow transitioning to the new paradigm of post Soviet Russia.

The saddest part is that they just went through all of this less than five years ago in the first Chechen war, leanred all their lesson of how to fight the hard way, then failed to disseminate effectively learn (organizationally) how better to conduct operations and let their forces slip into further disrepair. Then they had to go through it all over again.

I feel bad for most of the conscripts. I mean what are these guys? 18, 19? Little training, ill equipped. And they're suffering for the excesses inflicted upon the Chechens from the Interior Ministry troops which pretty much do their own thing with litte regard or coordination with the regular Army. It's a real **** sandwich.

Whatever you do stay out of the army. Go into the navy or something! Oh wait a minute that's not a good idea either...

Los

P.S> If there ever is a modern CM there certainly is a whole plethora of interesting scenarios to be gleaned from here.

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-29-2000).]

[Lorak]

well... I've read this topic and seen the footage.

I have to agree with Los and his thinking on the rebels. They more than likely shot the POW because he was wounded and could not keep up. I don't believe it was right, but I understand it. In a lot of these small outfits they would do they same to their own men. Too wounded to keep up, no medical system in place if they could make it back. Basically a walking dead man. I believe they would shot one of their own that was that bad off before they just left him. The Men with them most likely know and understnad this also.

I do think that reguardless of reason, It was a very bad decission to film and show this to the public. War is not pretty, People die, but being precieved as that cold blooded just makes your enemy hate you more.

As for the war going on, I don't follow it from a right or wrong standpoint. I follow it mostly to see if it will get out of hand and possibly spread. It is also a good indication of how poorly equiped the russian military is today.

Lorak

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Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams

[The Commissar]

I agree with you completely, Los.

Come on guys...read a BOOK here! If Russian war academies are so ill learned that they teach their generals such "strategy" (if strategy this human wave can be called, more like butchery), then at least learn from the westerners! Buy a stinking book. There aee many Guerilla warfare literature out there.

For good sources, check this site out www.paladin-press.com

Just in this small publishing page, I found 2 publications on performing and countering Guerilla warfare. It's not that hard to train men into shape. Doesn't even take a lot of money. But throwing kids who were hanging out on the streets and partying with their friends a week before, against fanatical Chechnian murderers is well...murder.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"