Hmmm......

[Tris]

This is potentially worrisome - at some point, the cost of CM per hour of gameplay will be so low as to be effectively zero.

Looked at logically . . . that is an impossibility. I agree that as one owns and plays the game longer that the cost per hour for the purchase will plunge to an insignificant amount--which is a very good thing from my perspective. It's been awhile since any computer game gave me this much bang for my buck. Last I can remember would be the original Earl Weaver Baseball.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tris:

Looked at logically . . . that is an impossibility. I agree that as one owns and plays the game longer that the cost per hour for the purchase will plunge to an insignificant amount

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How dare you insult my findings, base worm?! Why, I have it on good authority from Professor H.R. Ruggelpuff from the University of East Dakota that my thesis is 100% airtight in every way, and will be accepted as the standard CM cost/value model for decades to come!

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tris:

Looked at logically . . . that is an impossibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who are you? Bloody Spock from Star Treck?

Leave Kumbaya alone, he has enough problems already without you pointing out the whole in the rambling diatribe he thinks is a thesis that you can sail a battleship through. He is such a nice guy, he deserves a break.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Lordfluffers]

[quote9

Cost/unit do not have jack to do with price/unit. Price is established by willingness to pay on the part of the customer, and a prediction whether there will be enough customers to cover your total cost.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Every month or so we see a thread like this. Every month we reply the same way

The cost of CM is, in most countries, priced in accordance with other top "quality" games (which might actually be crap). Because of the strong US Dollar and the S&H rate, this might be a bit more than some non-US residents like. But there is little we can do about that.

As for CM being overpriced because of (fill in the blank reason) we say... based on what? I am unaware of any wargame of this quality priced lower than CM, no matter how it is distributed.

And the notion that because we are shipping on the 'net, directly to the customer, that we should be lowballing our prices... ridiculous. We sell far fewer units over the Internet, therefore although our margins are higher our overall take is less than if we had a big publisher pushing CM.

And guess what? Big publishers certainly do not price their products based on their costs. Nope, they price them according to what the consumer is willing to pay. Example, a wargame title I know of cost $300k and a RTS game I can think of cost $1,000k. Price to the consumer? Same. Why? Because the customer is willing to pay x for the game and that is that. The difference is between profit and loss then falls on the marketing and sales departments. If the two above mentioned games both sold 100,000 units, one would yield a decent profit and the other would be a total disaster.

In the end, we have found that the people questioning our pricing are doing it for one of two reasons:

1. Any price over $0.50 is too much

2. A misguided, and uneducated, concept of economics and software business realities.

In either case, as the people spending our time and resources making, selling, and supporting Combat Mission... we can assure you that we are not overcharging. And even if we were (and I repeat we are not) anybody that has hung around here for any length of time would know that it would only mean a better Combat Mission 2. Yeah, we are stupid enough to plow our profits back into these dumb wargames, so sue us

Steve

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

I know how economics works (demand, supply etc etc). Also please ppl, do not get me wrong. I love CM.

However a design team of 2 or 3, and a distributor that does not have to box its products, sell them thru third parties, pay for huge advertising campaigns, or keep international offices etc going, can afford to be a little more generous and keep the price a little lower than your average mass marketed game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but this ain't an average game. even at the price, the demand was so huge that they ran out of supply(first run print). therefore, i.e., ergo, f.u., the economics say the price is generous!

q.e.d., ipso facto, amen.

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Chupacabra]

I'm a student myself, I pay fees too, and as some other folk on the board can tell you, I often don't have two pence to scrape together. But the issue of 'pricing integrity' absolutely never entered my mind.

Either you assume Steve and Charles are a bunch of money-hungrey land-eels, or not. Companies that are looking to screw you out of a few quid are going to screw you every chance they get. If BTS was about making money to the disadvantage of their customers, how much you wanna bet they'd have sold out to Talonsoft or SSI by now? I bet the offer's been made.

If you think BTS is looking to screw you, well, I dunno. I can understand being paranoid about software companies, but I think it's completely misplaced in this case.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Yeah, we are stupid enough to plow our profits back into these dumb wargames, so sue us

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whereas instead you should be plowing your profits into hooking me up with a working flame halftrack. I reckon the videos you'd get of a maniacally laughing American doing doughnuts in Picadilly Circus and spewing napalm at black cabs and double-decker buses would be worth the price of admission.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Tris]

I just think BTS and Battlefront.com are taking advantage a little.

I think that I understand and appreciate your point of view, though please consider this:

<LI> BTS could have hardly known what its market would have been coming into this venture--a case of "They said it couldn't be done" and all that--and so probably arrived at its present price structure with the hope that eventually enough profit would be realized to allow them to continue with the company's work.

<LI> Even had BTS known what its sales would be, it has every right to charge what it feels its product is worth in the open market (I certainly would if I stood those shoes).

<LI> No matter how this title looks to you with respect what is charged for it with re to its (supposed) relatively lower (compared to more-or-less parallel mainstream titles) production costs, isn't it so that you derive much enjoyment, and thus perceived value, from this purchase, and is it also not the case that you have had less happy experiences in your gaming past, that you might well have paid less (or more, for that matter) for the purchase in question yet then as part of that "bargain" received entirely less, too?

Anyway, a free market philosophy prevails (thankfully) and consumers can (as they always do) vote with their pocketbooks. I find it a good thing that many consumers of our hobby have chosen to vote "Yes!" for CMBO, as this will go a long way toward ensuring that we will one day get to enjoy a sequil to this engaging piece of software. A kind of good deal where I come from.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Lordfluffers]

Guys!!!

Please!!!!

I am only inviting debate and discussion. I just wanted to know that BTS are being fair. A couple of things in my defence to ponder.

1.) A lack of supply does not neccisarily mean generousity. The new Bentley is priced at $125 000 and they've already outstripped supply in pre-orders!!!

2.) Running out of supply can also be caused by a lack of accurate predictions etc etc.

3.) BTS I am not pissed off aI've given you $55. when CM2 comes out will be queuing tio do the same!!! I am merely questioning the prcie structure. If you feel its justified fair enough. There is no need to get so defensive unless you have something to hide.

4.) The general, popular, PC games market is very price elastic. A game selling for $10 dollars more than its competitors would sell disastrously unless the game was something very special.

5.) CM appeals to a unique audience. That's why ppl say they'd buy it at twice the price etc. It appeals to a very defined market group. BTS, unlike someone releasing another racing game for example, know they have a winner.

6.) I know the profits are being plowed back into CM2. Don't get so offended. Steve, you and the guys are doing a great job. I'm so thankful I chanced upon a review in PC Gamer and DL'ed the demo. There is no other software developer I support so much or wish to see succeed. I hope you guys make millions, because the vision and guts you have, deserve to be rewarded.

Finally I am NOT CHEAP!!!! I am happy to pay a price as long as its justified and I dont fell ripped off. With CM I dont fell ripped off.

Let me repeat I was attempting to provoke a reasoned discussion. Now Im not sure if ppl can discuss this without becoming emotional.

[Nathman]

This game is a great value, and anyone out there who complains that BTS is making too much money from it shouldn't have bought it in the first place - no one forced you to buy it, so quit your bitchin.

[Pvt. Ryan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

Now Im not sure if ppl can discuss this without becoming emotional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this is CM. How can we help becoming emotional?

[Tris]

Your thinking is too simplistic, but you are student, so you will have some time to learn. I suggest you do lots of it before pronouncing brainless trash about other people's business again. Of course, Andersen Consulting will welcome you with open hands and a huge salary if you continue doing it.

You are correct in a certain sense but have gone overboard with this--it's a sort of personal attack--and in my mind's eye you owe this person an apology. Hopefully, this apology would be a well-meant one.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Lordfluffers,

I don't think I was defensive. Instead, I think I explained things as they are, not as you perceive them to be. It was you that wrote this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I just think BTS and Battlefront.com are taking advantage a little. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we were taking advantage we would have charged $60 USD. As you can see, we probably could have got away with it (not without a lot of customer complaints though). In fact, other small operations in the wargame field have charged even MORE than this.

It is simple economics. The game is worth what it is worth because there is a standard price range that customers have established they are willing to pay for a top quality game. Cost of production, overhead, marketing expenses, shelf space purchases, etc. do not factor into that value one bit. Nor should it.

Combat Mission is, without a question of a doubt, a new and top quality realese, which is why it is $45 and not $20. In a free market economic model, the people making stuff should get rewarded for their efforts. So if we put out a great product at a fair price, and somehow get stinking rich off of it... uhm... what's the problem? We did work for three years without pay or any sort of certainty that we would ever finish the thing much less have it flourish in the market place.

Id founders got hundreds of millions of dollars in personal PROFIT from their products, yet Quake III didn't have an initial price tag of $9.99 did it?

For us, we will never tally up those sorts of gains. But if we ever did (dreams of a main battle tank in my barn forming in my head already ) it would be because we brought products into the world that people think are kick ass. I for one don't begrudge anybody who makes money off of a great product that is fairly priced. Nobody should.

Steve

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

I am only inviting debate and discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This thread would be the debate and discussion you invited.

What do you think, people are going to say "No, I think $44.95 would be more fair"? What say, $36.77? I mean, what sort of discussion is this really meant to provoke...

Lf: CM- too much?

World: No.

Lf: "There is no need to get so defensive unless you have something to hide."

BTS: You're right, we took the code from an alien ship that crashed in our yard and shot the survivors. We bribed Scotland Yard to keep it hush-hush. We mixed it with asbestos and used drugs and hookers to sell it to grade school kids. Nixon couldn't have bombed Cambodia without it. How 'bout we give you one at cost, say $6.95, and a T-shirt?

Lf: Ok.

You brought it up, people disagree, someone agreed with you, that's a discussion, right? The price is right- cheap. There is no need to get so defensive unless you have something to hide.

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

We mixed it with asbestos and used drugs and hookers to sell it to grade school kids.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn guys! He knows about the hookers!

Madmatt

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

1.) A lack of supply does not neccisarily mean generousity. The new Bentley is priced at $125 000 and they've already outstripped supply in pre-orders!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So let me get this straight, according to your reasoning they ought to have a special price for you because you are a student?

Do you go to your local Sainsbury's and ask for a rebate because you don't have a lot of money?

And Tris, you are right, I went overboard with the earlier post, and would like to apologise for that.

------------------

Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-06-2000).]

[Vanir]

I really don't see what there is to debate here.

Fact: 44.95 is pretty average price for a new game. Yes you do have to pay S&H but you don't have sales tax.

Fact: The vast majority of people who have played CM consider it an above average game.

Why should BTS feel obligated to sell their better than average game at a below average price? As long as you are getting good value for your money what more can you ask for? Play the game and be happy

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Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. - Bullethead

[RudeLover]

I would pay _more_ for CM than for the average game, for all the reasons people have listed above. Then again, I'm also willing to pay extra for quality in other areas: Red Hook or Sierra Nevada or Abita instead of Bud, single-malts or Maker's Mark instead of generic whiskey, Peet's coffee instead of Folger's crystals. I'll pay a little bit extra at my local indie record or book store 'cuz they're cooler and more knowledgeable than the folks at the chains. It's not always true that you get what you pay for, and it's not always easy to part with the hard-earned, especially if you're a student (I was in grad school for seven years). But when you can reward good work, do it. I'll send my $45 to BTS cheerfully, and I'd pay twice that for CM2.

[USTanker]

Let us not forget that this is not a communist society! Things in a capilalist society don't cost what they are worth, they cost what the market is willing to bear! Who cares if that shiny new car only has $5000 worth or material and labor in it, it costs $20,000 because people are willing to pay that. If it is too high, then your option is not to buy it. Competition, if it exists, will drive consumers to purchase something else. In Combat Mission's case, there is no competition. It's a great game, and let's face it, no one else comes close. If BTS really wanted to make a killing, they would jack up their prices in response to increased demand. But they didn't; why, because that's not their deal. They produce a quality game and charge a "fair" price based on what other companies charge for their mediocre products. CM is a bargain at $45 and I can't wait for CM2. I wonder if they're taking pre-orders yet...

[This message has been edited by USTanker (edited 11-06-2000).]

[Mord]

And after all this is said, why didn't you bring up this price issue that is driving you so crazy BEFORE you bought the game?

Mord.

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Col.Kilgore:

I Think you are charging too much for the Combat mission game... $45? I mean... id rather go pick up Half-life, or Diablo2, or Close combat, for that price.... i would not mind paying $20 for the full version.... but not $45... may i ask why you charge so much?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you'd rather pay $45 for another game it means you just like the other game better. $45 is bot a bad price for a computer game at all. I usually pay $39.99 (Maden 2001) UPTO $59.99 (Diablo II). Combat Mission is a good price at $45. Considering it comes with a REAL game manual it is even better. Why would you pay $45 for another game but not Combat Mission?

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

However, it is sold only by internet, unboxed and without extensive marketing. This massively cuts costs. I feel that although I would have, and did, buy CM for $55 (inc. delivery), it's overpriced. I do agree with Battlefront's philosophy, small time distributor etc etc. Yet I'd rather not have payed extra for shipping to the UK, nor did I want to wait 3 weeks for it to arrive. Furthermore the development is not as high as for something like Quake 3 etc. The margin for CM must be collosal!!!

The costs to Battlefront.com simply do not reflect the price it's charging.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You forget that Combat Mission is not going to have the volume as other "marketed" games either. This lack of volume will also raise the price. Probably off-sets any savings in marketting or "box" costs.

[joeski]

BTS: I think you should raise the price! Everyone should have there own tank. I feel sorry for those of you who don't. I mean I really fell sorry for you.

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"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey