Engineers

[Private Ryan]

I was wondering what specificly can engineers do? Do they have special weapons? Clear minefields? I did a search but it just brought up posts that stated that engineers were in the game. Any screenshots Madmatt of engineers?

Thanks,

Pvt. Ryan

[Colin]

Well if you've seen the Flame War section at the combathq.thegamers.net you've already seen some enginneers!

Some engineers have special weapons like flamethrowers.

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[Aacooper]

I remember that they won't be able clear minefields due to the time scale of the game.

Also, minefields weren't cleared under fire.

[Colin]

Oh yeah that reminds me of a screenshot of a flamethrower at Madmatt and Fionn's site. It's in the Urban Combat screenshot gallery. It's show a close up a flamethrower team. It's pretty cool looking.

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[Speedy]

Aacooper:- Just read a book on D-Day, in an engagement inland from sword beach. The attack was against a fortified German position called "Hillman" made by 'A'Company of the 1st Suffolks, 8th INF BDE, 3rd INF DIV. The account comes from several people who took part in the action. The position had two barbed wire fences around it with mines between them. One team advance and blew a hole in the first fence with Bangalores, then a section of Royal Engineers went in and cleared a path through the mines, now another Bangalore team went in and blew up the second fence.

One of the Engineers, Sapper Richard Ellis, recalls in the book "We were told to tape a path through the minefield, where we came under machine-gun fire. I led the way into the minefield at the crouch and dived behid a small mound; the mg rounds were bouncing of it and the third man of our team was hit in the chest. After lying there for a while I began to ease forward........".

Just thought I would put this in so you can see that sometimes mineclearing was done under fire.

[Fionn]

Good point Speedy but those types of ops were pretty circumscribed and rare.. Things like D-day assault led to a whole host of units doing things they didn't normally do (Duplex Drive tanks), tactical bombardment by strategic bombers etc

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Bullethead]

Fionn said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Good point Speedy but those types of ops were pretty circumscribed and rare..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn, Speedy isn't talking about clearing a minefield, he's talking about breaching one. And this is a (depressingly) common task in all assaults on prepared positions. Hell, those poor bastards in Heurtgenwald had to do it every day for months, even in areas were there were no pillboxes.

All the attackers are doing is clearing a very narrow lane through the mines, leaving the vast majority of them in place. If they take the position on the other side, then they worry about clearing the whole field. And because "obstacles not covered by fire are not obstacles," breaching almost always has to be done under fire ...er, I mean

So are we to understand that engineers can't breach minefields in CM? No bangalore torpedoes? No flail tanks? No mine roller or plow tanks? That would certainly be depressing Seems like it would give the defense an unrealistic advantage.

-Bullethead

[Los]

I'm glad Bullethead brought up the point that I have made plenty of times on this list before. There is a huge difference between "clearing" mines under fire and "breaching" minefields or other obstacles under fire. The former is unheard of because it serves no tactical purpose, but the latter is something done in pretty much any deliberate assault against a prepared position.

Once CM is out the door (at this late date it's too late to screw with major things like this), we'll get down to the business of pitching an intelligent case (which includes "how" we should do it, not just why we should do it) for some type of breaching operation.

Los

[Bullethead]

Los said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Once CM is out the door ... we'll get down to the business of pitching an intelligent case (which includes "how" we should do it, not just why we should do it) for some type of breaching operation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we've got nothing better to do while we wait but plan this attack . So perhaps you can tell us how CM currently handles obstacles, to enable us to be thinking up ways to tweak the system.

Hmmm, and maybe Madmatt can give us some pictures of various defensive belts.

Sidenote: Attention scenario designers. With no in-game breaching capabilities, obstacles will have serious play balance implications.

-Bullethead

[Guest Captain Foobar]

Regarding a minefield breach:

Have you guys seen the movie "Hell is for Heroes"? Before the final assault, the Americans called in an arty strike, in a line pattern, to breach a minefield.

Was that something that was SOP? Would it work?, or would they do something like was mentioned above re: Sword Beach?

[Bullethead]

Capt. Foobar said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Before the final assault, the Americans called in an arty strike, in a line pattern, to breach a minefield.

Was that something that was SOP? Would it work?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explosives in various forms are frequently used to breach minefields. They all work on the same principle: the blast overpressure from the explosion sets off mines in the immediate area. So yes, arty shells can set off mines.

Problem is, the area cleared by any 1 shell is very small compared to its kill radius against troops. Thus, a breach requires the shells landing very close together. This close spacing also means that the length of the salvo will probably be considerably less than the width of the minefield, so you'd have to shoot in several segments aligned exactly end to end to breach all the way across. On top of this, any undulations in the ground will throw the pattern off anyway. So it's very unlikely you'd get a safe segment of breach from 1 volley--each gun would have shoot a number of rounds per segment of breach. And this might churn the ground up enough to slow the advance of the assault forces.

Thus, breaching minefields isn't arty SOP today and I doubt it was in WW2. That's what you have engineers with their line charges and bangalores for. But I suppose arty would be better than nothing. However, the arty would be better employed pounding the enemy positions that cover the minefield, or at least smoking them, so they can't shoot at the poor engineers while they work.

-Bullethead

[Hawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

Thus, breaching minefields isn't arty SOP today and I doubt it was in WW2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While we're at it: is it correct that the US HQ in Desert Storm decided to use carpet bombing by B52s in an attemt to breach an Iraki minefield? The end result was (AFAIK) that the ground was so churned and cratered that no known vehicle could traverse it after the attack.

Hawk

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Our's is not to reason "why", our's is but to do and die!

[Fionn]

Ah I wasn't being clear.. I agree that breaching is something which should go in (in certain circumstances) but I think clearing shouldn't.

Certain circumstances = Engineers didn't always carry around Bangalore torpedoes etc so I wouldn't like to see these being ever-present.. They'd need to be tracked like demo charges I suppose.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

For all who are interested in this topic, use the Search feature. This has been covered several times before.

I managed to land myself a copy of a 1960s US Engineer field manual. It includes time estimates and requirements for clearing lanes and paths in minefields. I gave some statistics that this 1960s FM had about how long it took to clear a path in ideal circumstances (i.e. nobody firing at you) and it was far greater than the length of time CM simulates per battle.

One thing that vets and historians are horrible at doing when they describe battles is detailing how LONG it took to do various things. Very often what they describe sounded like it took minutes, but more often than that it took tens of minutes. A battle description is generally a mishmash of events that happened over several small firefights, not one big one.

Path clearning CERTAINLY happened while under fire. However, effective path clearing through defended, dense minefields took a long, long, time with HUGE efforts to keep the engineers from being picked off in the process. This sort of thing is far outside of CM's scope. So because of that we aren't wasting our time simulating this aspect of warfare in any great detail. Simply isn't a good use of our limited time.

I also need to point out that very often assaults were made on prepared positions without the benefit of engineers, and nearly always without the benefit of specialized mine clearing equipment. Pressures on time and resources ment that this stuff wasn't practical and/or available to the extent that was necessary.

NOW! Having said all that, we did feel that there was a need to simulate bangalores to some extent. And not just because Saving Private Ryan had them too So a couple of weeks ago Charles added this to the list of things that an Engineer Squad can do. They use their statchel charges as if they were bangalores. For CM 1.0 this is all we are going to do for path clearing.

Steve

[Bullethead]

Hawk said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>While we're at it: is it correct that the US HQ in Desert Storm decided to use carpet bombing by B52s in an attemt to breach an Iraki minefield?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not where my part of 2MarDiv assaulted. We were told, however, that they were going to use a C-130 to drop one of those mondo 20k pound (or however big), jungle-clearing FAE bombs right in front of us. This would have hopefully set off a lot of mines and killed a lot of Iraqis without tearing up the ground too much. So we were all waiting eagerly to see such a huge, cool explosion. But nothing happened and we assaulted without it, our engineers using line charges, plows, and rollers, all the while worrying that the damn flyboys would show up late and drop that big mother on us.

Wasn't until after the war was over that we found out the brass had wussed out at the last minute. They were afraid the Herc would get shot down on ingress and land in the middle of us all massed on the LOD.

-Bullethead

[Bullethead]

Steve said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a couple of weeks ago Charles added this to the list of things that an Engineer Squad can do. They use their statchel charges as if they were bangalores. For CM 1.0 this is all we are going to do for path clearing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey great! This should work pretty good. Thanks.

-Bullethead

[BFCElvis]

Steve,

I understand about not clearing minefields in a battle but how about in an operation? Where it might span a day or two. Would you be bringing in reinforocements through minefields that the front line has already gone past?

[Guest Big Time Software]

In theory the lines would have either moved through the minefield or been stuck not getting through it. In the former case the minefield becomes a hazard for rear troops, the latter something that doesn't need to be simulated. In any case, CM wasn't designed to simulate battles of attrition against dense fortification lines. In theory it could have been designed that way, but the game value is low and the work for us very high.

Steve

[BFCElvis]

You would think that the time an operation covers would allow for the clearing of minefileds. But I have no idea how big these minefields might be. Are they so small that once you have cleared out an area they only are a little bit of a pain to get around, like a pond or something. Or will they cover large areas and really make it affect you entry of units? But please do NOTHING that would delay the game because some lame brain (ME).

Thanks for the quick reply.

[This message has been edited by Elvis (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Los]

The only glitch that I see in what your saying is that your typical CM minefield is 20 meters wide unless you choose to pile on a to pile on the minefield hexes. You can clear a hasty breach( a single banaglore kit will clear a one meter-wide path) in a minefield)/path through 20 meters of minefield with about 10 lengths of bangalore. ( a single bangalore kit comes with ten sections) (BTW banaglores have changed very little from the ones used in WW2 There still the M1 and the M1A1.)

Checking FM 90-13-1 (I love my box o' manuals that I keep next to my PC) Combined Arms breaching Operations:

"When the obstacle consists of surface laid mines (BTW this is as common as buried mines and usually done with hasty minefields or sometimes on purpose..say when it's cold or the ground is frozen) a single engineer squad using the manual (Good old fashioned WW2 way with blocks of demo) clearing technique (I won't get into the specifics) can clear a standard 120 meter deep minefild in 5 (FIVE) minutes. There's an even hastier method that will clear the same field in 3 minutes though it's more risky.

Now for buried minefields...

There are multiple methods many usually combined for use in clearing breaches Under fire: They include grappling hooks, mine detectors and explosives and bangalores.

A detector team with breaching charges can clear about ten meters a minute.

To clear one hex worth of breach (say 20m, and I've seen it done a few times at JRTC/NTC) w/ Banaglores takes might take five minutes tops in a deliberate assault at the most.

BTW as an aside the current standard for a battalion task force conducting a major breach operation is to have the obstacle (consisting of wires, AT and AP mines;aid out ia 50-100m width soviet style pattern WITH an AT ditch) breached and through withing 45 minutes and with less than 30% casualties (imagine 30% casualties? You can see that these are dangerous things!) That's a battalion level breach and includes the securing or the breach and explotation of the breach. BTW the breaching element itself is not supposed to loose more than 50% casualties

Note that I haven't mentioned all the wazoo modern ways we have to clear minefields like MICLIC, CEV etc etc. I've limited my discussion to old methods. THere were sufficient examples of WW2 breaching operations (Which normally were preceeded by lots of prep and training) to make them a not unreasonable type of scenario which the player might wish to try from time to time.

Actually I'm more interested in breaching wire for CM...

ANyway, It's not the physical breaching of the minefield/obstacle that's tough or time consuming, it's the getting an engineer or assault squad into position under heavy fire where they can do the job and survive. Establishing the overwatch, isolating the breach with direct fire, indirect fire and smoke, Suppressing, sending the team forward, breaching, penetration and securing the hasty breach, expanding your forces on the otehr side, blah blah. That's a function of tactics and, I might add, a very interesting challenge for a player who chooses to try an assault type scenario.

But how to do it in CM? Therein lies the rub.

It takes one three man team to haul a single bangalore kit with ten sections and all the stuff you need. You could handle the bagalores like Panzerfausts or whatnot, allowing up to two kits per engineer squad. BTW too bad there wasn't a way to encumber a squad weighed down like this. (Or create a new assult engineer/pioneer squad) Anyway this squad would be allowed to breach ,say one 20m field in two turns. (I don't know how you would track that?) and what would be good is to show an actual lane through the mine graphic and a unit would only be allowed to pass unscathed if they passed over the hex in the right direction. Again I don't know how to do that with this engine or if it can be done. Also the suqad would only be able to breach as long as it was in a good morale state with X% of men still functional. And of course moving through the lane, (Where you have to funnel your guys through one by one would take more time , say no fast move through a breach).

I doubt if any of this can be accomplished given the current model but it makes for interesting speculation. Also I'll chime in that the absence of this capability does IMO not impeded in he fun of the game or getting heh job done even in assault scenarios.

Cheers...

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Good post Los. I think Elvis (and others) were asking about mines in depth. That could be simulated in CM, but not well as we didn't code up stuff to handle these situations specifically. And more often than not if we didn't code for it, no workie

Also keep in mind that Los is only talking about the "easy" methods for clearing mines. the hard way (probing) takes a WHOLE lot longer to do. A footpath through 100m of mines (5 CM tiles of mines deep) takes between 16 and 22 MAN HOURS. Teams were eight men, so that is 2 to 3 hours to make a path (40 - 60 minutes per tile). So this is well outside of CM's scope.

What Los said about the time needed for the Bangalores was the prep and approach times. The deployment and detonation wasn't time consuming.

As far as a bangalore team goes... who knows, we might include one at a later date.

[Los]

Roger that. All my posts about Minefield breaching notwithstanding, if you actually set up a real defensive belt (AP/AT mines and wire, maybe even an AT ditch and pillboxes) such as some of the ones the 2d ID and the 29th ID had to take on in July, youa re talking something like 5-10+ tiles long! That's interspersed with wire belts and covered with fire. I agree that then you are in over your head within the timeframe of most CM scenarios.

If we ever do see bangalores it would be nice for them to have some effect on at least Wire.

Cheers...

Los

[BFCElvis]

I think I was misunderstood. I understand that in a "battle" the clearing of a field is out. But in a multi-battle "operation" can they be cleared during the "down time between battles". If it still not within the scope of the game that is fine. I'm just asking.

[Doug Beman]

Hmmm...I think the GMs of the operation will rule whether or not the mines are cleared between battles. I'd be inclined to say that clearing the mines (or at least getting enough routes through them so the traffic that needs to pass through can) would be a very high priority once the front line had moved far enough that the engineers could come in with all their fun toys.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Elvis, actually I got you the first time around My answer was brief to this point compared to the others.

Basically you would either make it through the belt and take on the enemy behind, or you wouldn't make it through the belt at all. In the former case this would mean the map would scroll forward and the defensive belt would become totally irrelevant. In the later case the game wouldn't be worth playing IOHO. You would sit there Battle one, get pasted, NOT have the mine field magically cleared inbetween battles (because your failure wouldn't be worthy of this ), and then be faced with the minefield for the next battle. If in that next battle you got through the defenses then it would be like the first case where it then becomes a non-combat part of the map.

BTW, large scale de-mining operations were NOT done under fire. This was far too time consuming and massive a task, so it was reserved for when the front moved up and out of the way. Important traffic areas would be cleared first and then other areas. Even today there are minefields all over the world that have been lying around for decades in some cases. I forget the estimate on clearing up minefields in Bosnia, but it will be several more years before they get the upper hand on them.

Steve