Captured Vehicles & Equipment Revisited

[John Kettler]

Recently, Jochen Peiper asked a serious question about captured vehicles and was told that they aren't in but that many would like to see them in. In my reply I went on to note several instances cited in the period covered by CM.

Andrew Wilson's FLAMETHROWER describes the acquisition of German trucks, a big halftrack, a Panther and a bus crammed full of Panzerfausts by his Crocodile troop and the measures taken to hide them from higher ups.

I recall that the U.S. 4th Armored Division had so much captured gear in combat use that it went around festooned with air recognition panels to avoid friendly fire.

German use of captured Jeeps and armored cars is well established and would make Bulge scenarios even more exciting.

The real fun with captured equipment will come with CM2 (Eastern Front) and beyond.

To support this effort, I commend to all

Red Steel (www.algonet.se/~toriert/introduction.htm), which has extensive photo sections of captured vehicles in German, Russian and Finnish service--captured Panzerjaeger Ibs to a Russian Panther company and Russian King Tigers; even a photo of the near mythical Wanze (Borgward B IV demo AFV armed with six Panzerschrecks on a pivoting mount with armored shield). Of course, there are pictures of captured T-34s (some on strength of Das Reich at Kursk), T-60s, KVs, etc.

Enabling the use of captured equipment in the game becomes particularly important in some of the winter battles. I recall that one Panzer division had no German tanks at all and something like two KV Is and a T-34 as its entire tank inventory.

The Germans used an enormous amount of captured Russian artillery (76.2mm high velocity gun, for one), and there are quite a few pictures of German infantry armed with PPSh m1941 SMGs and some of Russians armed with MP-40s. Partisans, of course, definitely used captured German weapons. I've seen footage of a band carrying an MG-34.

While we're at it, the long post someone put up giving the U.S. troops' assessment of their weapons vs. the Germans said that one division had replaced all the bazookas in its recon units with Panzerschrecks, much to the delight of the users.

In short, I believe that there is an excellent historic database supporting the use of captured weapons. This should particularly be true for elite units like the Rangers, Commandos and Brandenburgers which should be able to use enemy small arms.

This may be a nightmare to code, (so limit it to the scenario designer, perhaps?), but I feel it would add much flavor to the game.

What say the rest of you?

Sincerely,

John Kettler

[TeAcH]

Well said. A very thorough and well articulated point of view.

Id say if it was historical (as suggested by the post) than make it so.

[This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 09-04-2000).]

[Aussie Smith]

John

Well constructed argument.

I'd concure but I'd recommend limiting it to vehicles as infantry would be a nightmare to code..but hey its a challenge to BTS - go for it

Craig

[Mikeydz]

Within the timeframe of a scenario or operation, I doubt that troops or tank crews would mount up onto abandoned enemy tanks and make use of them, but if these is sufficient documented cases where, let's say Panzer IVs were captured in battle, repaired and put into service on the allied side, then I have no problem with that. Of course, I would rather not add this if it takes time from CM2 development.

[STRAKER]

This would make CM2 very complex. Its a good idea and fun in thought but fighting Russians wiht King Tigers would be real strange. If u could capture stuff then and there ok, but starting with captured stuff i think would be a no no.

I mean nicking a jeep etc is fine but capturing a tank?. CAn they crew it? Do they no how it works?

[STRAKER]

This would make CM2 very complex. Its a good idea and fun in thought but fighting Russians wiht King Tigers would be real strange. If u could capture stuff then and there ok, but starting with captured stuff i think would be a no no.

I mean nicking a jeep etc is fine but capturing a tank?. CAn they crew it? Do they no how it works?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STRAKER:

But fighting Russians wiht King Tigers would be real strange. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But if it happened in Real Life™?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STRAKER:

If u could capture stuff then and there ok, but starting with captured stuff i think would be a no no.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it works exactly the other way round. Good post John, and an excellent argument for the inclusion of Beutewaffen in future editions of CM. Particularly Africa, and Russia. But only at the beginning of the scenario from what I have come across, no recrewing during the duration of one.

The issue of whether OPFOR can run the captured equipment is easily dealt with. Make them conscript/green only. Those were WW2 tanks, can't be that difficult to run.

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Andreas

[109 Gustav]

Captured equipment would certainly make it easier to compare two different Allied tanks, or two different German ones. For example, which is really a better tank, the Panther or the Tiger 1? The only real way to find out would be to have them fight, and you can't do that unless one is on the opposite side.

When I played Over the Reich and achtung spitfire, I would sometimes simulate dogfights of friendly airplanes, so I could compare planes on the same side (spitfire vs mustang was interesting). However, because planes on the same side can't shoot each other, I would just assume some had been shot down after an enemy plane got on their tail.

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There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton

[Mace]

While I agree that captured equipment should be allowed, I think that captured AFVs and Military Transport should be purchased during CM setup rather than allow them to be captured and used immediately during a game.

Reason: most of my references show captured Soviet AFVs etc in German Camo, which suggests that some time was spent in readying the equipment (eg painting the revised markings, servicing the AFV, etc). Also, some time must have been required to get a crew familiar with the nuances of that vehicle/AFV.

Just my Aussie 2c worth (which, given current exchange rates, is not worth much)!

Mace

[pzvg]

Lot of words here that I like

of course, they would have to be taken at start up, why? well, there's the little matter of the great big fargin hole in the side, you know the one that made the crew bail in the first place

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[Brian Rock]

If it went in you'd want to put a whoping big penalty on buying captured vehicles.

Firstly it would help keep the proportions of national:captured at realistic levels, and secondly it would reflect how much harder it is to maintain vehicles when you're missing little things like parts.

[howardb]

I second that we should be able to use captured vehicles in the game but you have to buy it in the start of the game and never use what you capture yourself. Another thing, there needs to be a rarity on certain types of weapons eg. the T-34 in '42 (not just captured equipment. This would make QB's more enjoyable). The Germans had a few but not many so this should be something that favours the Russkies.

[Aussie Smith]

I'd not include them in Scenario's but as an addition to operation battles over a number of days - well it could put a whole new meaning to "abandoned" vehicles.

Just think of these abandoned vehicles as spoils of war

Craig

Ps Mace - I hope you have a patent on using my name in your posts old son

[This message has been edited by Aussie Smith (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Boogie]

I could see troops using e.g. an abandoned MG or other "light" weapons. Even truck or a Kubelwagen could be captured, but due to the timescale, I'd say, one shouldn't be able to capture tanks. OK... if you know how to maneuver a StuG or reload an 88, go ahead. Personally I'd leave it!

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith:

Ps Mace - I hope you have a patent on using my name in your posts old son

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Australian Patent Office******************

Form Z299300

This patent grants Mace (the patentee) the right to use the name 'Aussie' in any post that he may contribute to the BTF discussion board.

*******************************************

Mace

[howardb]

Now Mace this is the BTS discussion board

[IntelWeenie]

Captured vehicles would be OK (We already have the H-39, right?), but I would like to see them limited to the Scenario Editor or in QB with an additional purchase penalty (to reflect rarity).

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Aussie Smith]

I'd say given the exposure to vehicles from the D-Day landings to the end of the war - I would think it not really difficult to move a tank around - just make captured tank crews "green" as someone else said.

Craig