Calling Col.CoolJ

[Echo]

Without a doubt, you obviously are THE man with the graphics talent. The rare pics Ive seen of your work are picturesque, unbeleivable. The first ones I saw almost looked like cut scenes. What does a man have to do to get a small sample of your hard work?

Best 2 out of 3 in a PBEM match? I could roll over and give you a win, or hammer you in all 3, whichever you prefer.

Or if you're in the neiborhood, look up the local #20 (any fire house), and I'll treat you to a night out with the boys. (Which you'll regret in the morning).

You can even come over to my house and f#@$# my sister. (But I don't have one, you could come over anyway if I did.).

Cya round bro.

[aka_tom_w]

he's busy but he has not been reading or posting to this forum due to some politics and a complicated earlier misunderstanding over ownership of the intellectual property rights on a late shipped cd that he was owed.

but he is busy working on graphics, but not for CM

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Priest]

DAMN!!I just went to his web page. Call this guy. Speaking for CM fans "Let's make up!!"

------------------

Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah all his textures are simply awesome.

http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj/CM_photos.html

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

he's busy but he has not been reading or posting to this forum due to some politics and a complicated earlier misunderstanding over ownership of the intellectual property rights on a late shipped cd that he was owed.

but he is busy working on graphics, but not for CM

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this needs a WEE bit of clarification.

Colin, or "CoolColJ", has recently mentioned on the "war-historical" games newsgroup (at Usenet) that he is still working on his CM textures, but that he has no given schedule as to when he will complete it. If you post there, he will likely respond.

As to the "politics" of his not posting here, CoolColJ chooses not to post here as he feels that he is "persona non grata". This is because PRIOR to CM's shipping, Colin had alerted BTS (on this forum) of a net link providing a warez version of CM. Colin further mentioned that he himself downloaded the warez version to check it out in its functionality. I have to also note here, though, that Colin had pre-ordered CM months earlier, so this wasn't a case of him trying to personally rip off BTS.

But in the week as CM started shipping, CoolColJ started posting new textures for vehicles models that could only come from 1) the warez version, or 2) the full version. As Colin lives in Australia, he wouldn't have gotten the full version yet, so the upshot of this is that he likely used the warez version to generate some new textures until the CD arrived to him.

Earlier opinions of CM posters have varied widely (and contentiously) as to how right or wrong Colin's actions were, but from the view of BTS and closely-linked BTS testers, both the download of the warez version and using it to generate textures was "crossing the line" in legal conduct, even though Colin had certainly done the right thing to alert BTS of the warez link when he spotted it. And when pressed on the matter by BTS testers here, Colin asserted that he had a "test version" of the full CM game provided to him earlier by BTS, which BTS denied doing.

So it's really more of a "legal" issue than a "political" issue. I have to admit that in the overall sense, I don't quite see Colin's actions as that grave of a sin IF Colin deleted the warez version, didn't let it get to other people, and admitted that performing the download was wrong; again, Colin had prepaid earlier for the real thing, so he didn't "steal" in the personal sense. But other BTS members who worked a huge number of hours to help produce CM see it differently, in that even prepaid customers are "stealing" by helping to prop up a warez download site with an added "hit." Their opinion ultimately has to count more than mine here.

However, I'm further of the impression that if Colin was to publicly admit that doing the warez download was wrong, then BTS & co. could eventually let it go and welcome Colin's support again. Some of his work IS in the CM standard vehicle textures, like the M18 TD.

[crumply]

He did not steal in any sense, and this is a (immeasurably petty) moral issue, and not a legal issue.

If he had pre-ordered or, as BTS has posted, was entitled to receive a CD for his work on the game, then he had the right to use the code. Read the license agreement--he had the right to have and to use one copy of the code on his computer.

It simply does not matter, in either a legal or a moral sense, where the 0s and 1s came from.

On the other hand, if you are pissed because he got a copy of the game before you did, or because he breached some sense of etiquette, that is just sad.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crumply:

It simply does not matter, in either a legal or a moral sense, where the 0s and 1s came from.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really?!?...hmmm, very interesting.

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He did not steal in any sense ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense, pure and utter nonsense. While you MAY choose to see his actions as a minor sin, sin it was. DLing software from a pirate site is THEFT, nothing less. That he may have been entitled to a copy and that he prepaid doesn't change the fact that he committed theft to a greater or lesser degree. And worse, from the standpoint of most of us, is the fact that by DLing from the pirate site he further encouraged those sites.

Will his one DL make or break the pirate sites? Of course not, but they are thiefs and should not be encouraged, ESPECIALLY by someone who is involved (to whatever degree) with the firm generating the software.

Joe

[crumply]

Really--read the license agreement at the front of the manual.

Just to clarify: a license is a right to use something (in this case the code), not ownership of its physical embodiment (the CD).

[This message has been edited by crumply (edited 08-01-2000).]

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crumply:

He did not steal in any sense, and this is a (immeasurably petty) moral issue, and not a legal issue.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hate to see this come up again, but after much thought on my part (which may not be a lot from your point of view ) I think the main problem is that he knowingly had possession of stolen property. Did he steal by downloading the ILLEGAL copy? I guess that can be argued. Did he knowingly have stolen property in his possession and proceed to use it? Yes.

Sorry to keep this going, but "(immeasurably petty)" statement kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

------------------

Dan

[crumply]

shaw--it's only theft if you do not have the right to use the code. CJ had the right to use the code. What exactly do you think he stole: electrons?

[Kingfish]

Hello Crumply,

I'm a little confused on your position here. Can you clarify a few things for me:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If he had pre-ordered or, as BTS has posted, was entitled to receive a CD for his work on the game, then he had the right to use the code<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, correct me if i'm wrong here, but if one pre-orders the game, then they are entitled to d/l pirated copies because they've already paid. Is that what you are saying here?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Really--read the license agreement at the front of the manual.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you interpret this as permission by BTS to allow CCJ to use pirated codes? Do you think that's what the license agreement says?

Can you explain to me what legitimate purpose warez sites provide?

Just curious

[Echo]

I just read the license agreement. If followed to the letter, every web page on the net offering texture dowloads, sound files etc. is in violation of it.

Frankly I don't give a **** about all that, I'm just curious if ColCoolJ is going to be gracious enough to share his textures with those of us that are less anal retentive.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crumply:

He did not steal in any sense, and this is a (immeasurably petty) moral issue, and not a legal issue.

If he had pre-ordered or, as BTS has posted, was entitled to receive a CD for his work on the game, then he had the right to use the code. Read the license agreement--he had the right to have and to use one copy of the code on his computer.

It simply does not matter, in either a legal or a moral sense, where the 0s and 1s came from.

On the other hand, if you are pissed because he got a copy of the game before you did, or because he breached some sense of etiquette, that is just sad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps I should let BTS or Fionn step in here?

I personally believe that Colin didn't leak the warez version to anyone else. BUT...if someone else DID get a warez copy of CM from Colin, then it WOULD matter to BTS in both the legal AND moral sense where the 0's & 1's came from.

Colin has full right to do with what he wants with the CM images of the OFFICIAL version. But that wasn't the basis of earlier contention. License agreements do NOT extend to warez.

Further, why the hell should I be pissed if CoolColJ got an official CM CD even months before I did? He's done work to be entitled an early delivery from BTS, IF the BTS crew chose to do so. (They've stated otherwise.) Who gets CM at what timeframe means nothing to me.

Personally, I have no strong opinions on the issue, I think his graphic enhancements are first-rate (especially his terrain), and I hope that CoolColJ and BTS can "bridge" the issues between them.

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>shaw--it's only theft if you do not have the right to use the code. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't understand the difference then I probably can't explain it to you. It is theft because it is an illegally obtained copy, and NO, the license does not give you that right. If the "electrons" are obtained without a license attached then it is not a legitimate copy and owning such a copy is theft.

Joe

[MadDog0606]

Echo,

Your best bet is just to ask him via email or through his site if he is going to share it with the CM players. Maybe he'll post the textures on his site.

This thread has gone off track from your original question. And I don't think it will get back on track.

I learned a long time ago never to talk about the following unless your ready for a heated debate:

1. Religion

2. Politics

3. Taxes

4. The Morality of the use of Warez and Appz

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-01-2000).]

[thomasj]

People,

Can we agree to at least let this go? I have never spoken a word in either direction nor do I care to. Two threads on this have lead to nothing but the locking of them, there for I see this one heading no where rapidly also.

The absolute bottom line to all this is that it is between BTS and CCJ, not us.

Thanks

Now how about the RPG for CM by Pillar? I am still taking field commander applications for my AXIS army.

[Fionn]

"he's busy but he has not been reading or posting to this forum due to some politics and a complicated earlier misunderstanding over ownership of the intellectual property rights on a late shipped cd that he was owed.

but he is busy working on graphics, but not for CM"

Umm, using a pirated version of CM, refusing to admit this publicly and claiming publicly that he was using a version that BTS shipped him at the time ( when BTS has publicly stated this isn't so) isn't a matter of "political misunderstanding".

It is a matter of:

a) using warez ( i.e. stealing).

refusing to admit such usage

c) lieing and claiming he wasn't using a warez version when BTS stated clearly that he was.

Politics schmolitics.. This is a simple case of a guy using warez and then lieing about it. The problem is that he IS very talented and if he WAS trustworthy he probably would have a future in the industry. On the other hand he has shown himself to be untrustworthy and has lied and so he's shot himself in the foot.

Oh and for those guys who somehow got the idea that Colin is a teenage kid who didn't know what he's doing... He's in his mid 20s.. He DID know what he was doing and he's enough of an adult to be held responsible for it.

What Colin did was stupid since most CDs which are sent to warez groups are sent by employees of the game company THUS game companies really don't like hiring anyone who has a warez history. Unfortunately for Colin he's just given himself exactly such a history by his actions over the past couple of months. Like I said, he's shot his own ambitions in the foot by his own actions and has no-one to blame but himself for the repercussions.

And for the semantics lovers among you.... The WAREZ version is NOT the same code as the retail version ( copy protection etc has been hacked out) SO even if he had purchased a version of CM and thus had the right to 1 copy of CM he did NOT have the right to the warez version since it has slightly different code.. Thus even you semantics splitters can't make his theft legal.

Spook,

I think it's a pity that Colin did what he did since, if he hadn't shown himself to be untrustworthy and a possible leak source to hackers of betas of CM2 there is every chance he would have been much more closely involved with CM2. As it is however I seriously doubt that BTS is going to let a person who is unrepentant about warez usage get beta etc versions of any of their future games. Like I said, he's shot himself in the foot with his actions.

And the fact is that he didn't get his "legal" copy until well after guys in the US got it and WELL after he d/led his pirated copy.

And in closing....

The BIGGEST issue here is that Colin refuses to admit what he has done and continues to hide behind the smokescreen that there is some "misunderstanding" and that he never used a warez copy. Well that's just adding insult to injury to testers AND Steve and Charles.

Really, it's a pity cause his work is very good but unless he really has a major rethink on morality he's never going to achieve his ambition of working in the industry. You'd be AMAZED at the memory for such incidents.

[Colin]

Just though maybe I should clear something up...

I'm not CCJ!!! I used the name Colin on the forum long before he arrived. I had nothing to do with any warez work or anything. Perhaps for the sake of the forum and people who don't know who I am and who he is you should call him CoolColJ or CCJ. Just like to clear things up as I got a couple of angry emails.

------------------

And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

[David Aitken]

Colin wrote:

> I'm not CCJ!!!

Look fellas, there he is! String the sonofabitch up from the nearest lamppost! =)

[aka_tom_w]

This seems to be a big stinking, hairy, issue....

The way I see from my point of view is the guy bought (or was owed) a copy of CM from BTS.

He did the texture on the M18Hellcat for the Demo. ( This is a fact he has a credit in the Manual)

He was in Australia and found another way of getting the software other than waiting two or three weeks for it to arrive.

This is a very contentious issue and I really don't see what the big deal is.

I personally think the software "should be" or (should have been) available for download with a credit card. It is not and the decision was made clearly and directly that the game would not be available via download and could only be purchased via the internet and shipped via snail mail. (A BTS decision that I understand)

Not wanting to wait for Snail mail to Australia he chose to use his knowledge of the internet and "find" a copy. He alerted BTS as to where he got this copy.

THEN for the betterment of the game and for the enjoyment of all, he went further with his textures and and posted his latest creations on his web site.

For this use of the copy that DID not come in the mail he was labeled by some here a thief and a pirate.

Had the software he was owed been available from an officially blessed BTS server for download NONE of this would have happened.

I doubt, given the reaction of some here in this forum, that we will hear from ColCoolJ here again.

I think it is we here who have shot our selves in the foot.

This thread is sure to be locked soon as there are some strongly held opinions here about morals and ethics and intellectual property rights.

In my opinion, he was owed the software by BTS (having paid for it one way or another) and so where he got it from makes no real difference.

(I expect to be flamed for my opinion but I will post it here any way).

If my facts are wrong I'm sure someone will tell me. If you do not like my opinions I guess I will hear about that as well.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Echo]

Sounds like a low life scum bag piece of ****. Just like most of my friends I hang out and drink with.

------------------

As I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear nothing, for I am the meanest mother*#*#** in the valley. (George S. Patton)

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sounds like a low life scum bag piece of ****. Just like most of my friends I hang out and drink with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who? You're going to have to be WAY more specific than that on THIS board.

Joe

[SuperTed]

Several people have expressed concern that we will not get a chance to get more textures from CCJ. I have just one question about that potential situation. So what?

SuperTed

[Gregory Deych]

I personally see zero problems with the issue. There is exactly one moral issue in play here, and that is: did CCJ's actions hurt BTS in any way, shape or form. Since he had already purchased the game at the time he downloaded a warez version, there is no harm. Let me give you a personal example:

I've ordered PzC:Smolensk when it first came out. But when it arrived, I've discovered that it would not install itself on my computer from the CD. I do not know wether the CD was defective, or just for some reason incompatible with my CD drive, but I went ahead and downloaded a warez version, which played perfectly. Was I wrong? I absolutely don't think so in moral sense. In legal sense, I'm prepared to make full financial restitution to HPS. How much financial harm did I cause them, would you say? -4.95, for not having to send me a duplicate CD? Bottom line: Colin contributed to BTS, out of the goodness of his heart. If you wish to be moralistic about it, how much does BTS "owe" (morally) for creating the textures on the M18? I think the stink that some members of the forum created over this has deprived the rest of his contribution to the final version. A shame indeed.