Steve Clark Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 [i rather enjoyed reading about people's interest in CM2 and particularly the Russian Front. Before anyone gets defensive about this thread, let me say that I will buy at least 3 copies of CM2, 2 as gifts.] Let me play Devil's Advocate here about CM2. Apart from technical enhancements as BTS described, won't some gamers say 'been there, done that'? Because of the scale of the game and the small map area, you're not going to feel like you're invading Russia (as you would in a strategic/operational level wargame). It will still primarily be tanks/troops vs tanks/troops just like in CM1. Just because you got T-34s and other different unit models, they still fire ammos, and the tactics will still be nearly the same, right? CM1 could've been placed in the Outbacks of Australia and still be wargame of the year because of its revolutionary model. It has to be more than Russians vs Germans (for the most part) because at the scale of CM, it is still you and against them regardless of the name. BTS said that the units will be more balanced, but again, at the CM scale, anything can happen - weak can take out strong. CM2 will be a best seller no doubt but will it create the same buzz as CM1 or will it be the same MG/AT/AA/HE/etc. effectiveness debates over and over again but with different names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I will buy it, too. If you like wargames, why should you not want to buy the successor of the one which is probably the best of it's kind? If you do not like wargames, would you buy CM in the first place?! With regard to the 'been there, done that' syndrome, I am more concerned about the fate of the hypothetical expansion pack. I do not yet see a reason to buy it, or what it should contain, for that matter!? So much for my personal market survey! Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Some might say that, but I expect them to be the same ones that poh-pohed the expansions for Advanced Squad Leader when most folks couldn't wait for the next theater to be released. I remember for the longest time ASLers clamoring for the release of AoO (Armies of Oblivion), the expansion that added a lot of the minor allies, but no real rule updates/changes. I'd expect the same thing happening with CM2. Also, I expect there to be significant updates to the graphics modelling, since that has been the biggest mainstream niggle. Charles has stated that CM1 graphics were based on the assumption that people would have 4MB video cards. Now, he can plan on a 16-32MB baseline! ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Trust in the men who made CM1 to whip out something special in CM2. Change too much and it is bad, change too little and it is bad. Let's just trust them. Games this good should experience EVOLUTION not REVOLUTION. Remember X-com? ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Steve- Hmm. I'm right there with IntelWeenie - every new ASL module is worth it to me just as a resource, even if I never play it or punch the counters. I would think CM2 will be similar for me. As I've stated, I'm no huge fan of the East Front, but the scope is so huge that it will (hopefully) be much more than changing from M4s vs. Pz IVs to T-34s vs. Pz IVs: It will have the BT series of tanks, MkIIs and MkIIIs, hopefully the Czech stuff, maybe some Cav (??), new terrain, etc., etc. For the graphics crowd there will be more good eye-pleasin' stuff, and finally a well-researched assortment of Soviet infantry units. What's not to like about any of that? -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elementalwarre Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollstoy: If you do not like wargames, would you buy CM in the first place?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yes. i played no board or computer wargames before CM because i couldn't stand the rule complexity or turn/hex artificiality. color me a convert! yes that means i didn't like wargame implementation, not wargames per se Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I think most of us, Eastern Front grogs or not, will welcome the enhancements that will probably be made to the CM engine for CM2. I'm assuming that CM2 will be more than just an add-on pack with new squads and new tanks, but will rather include more complexity with regards to urban fighting, command and control, and perhaps even campaign structure. At the same time, there's something great to be said for the atmosphere of fighting on the Eastern Front. Even just hearing the Russian and German voices on the same battlefield will change the experience of playing the game. Moreover, though, a whole slew of new vehicles and troop types with new strengths and weaknesses will add a lot to the CM experience. There's very little that's "generic" about CMBO, and I think CM2 will build on the specificities involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I keep on reading references for a planned CM:BO expansion pack yet a search(long!) has revealed not one word where BTS has said they are or will be making one. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 To me the Russian front is a far bigger draw than the western front, as Fionn pointed out if it wasnt for CM's engine I would have passed on a western front WW2 game. I am however interested in eastern front, so I would expect LARGER sales for CM2 than CM1 not the other way around. Also I hope it wont be as much work for BTS as CM1 was, they have a great code base and I can hope that CM2 will get done quicker becuase of that. Also with BTS I have no doubt as to the quality, so far their standards have been incredibly high. Cheers _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate: I keep on reading references for a planned CM:BO expansion pack yet a search(long!) has revealed not one word where BTS has said they are or will be making one. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From what I remember I don't think there has been talk of expansion packs from BTS (other than the patches we are seeing) Mods are being left int he "sort of" hands of third parties. I say sort of because some of the mods are being done by people who contributed to the game. Rather I expect CM2 to be it's own stand-alone game. ------------------ "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- King Henry VI, Part II, Act 4, sc.2, l.86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: I remember for the longest time ASLers clamoring for the release of AoO (Armies of Oblivion), the expansion that added a lot of the minor allies, but no real rule updates/changes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> AoO playtesting starting soonish, hopefully. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I'd like to second elementalwarre here. In fact there is something super important happening to PC strategy gaming as a whole here, with the release of CM. I think at least a few people here have never played a wargame in their life until CM. I personally can't see going back to Age of Empires after this. And I think BTS should licence their TacAI and fuzzy logic routines to other game developers to let them make fictional or fantastic wego or RTS games with the same 'all-too-human' unit behavior found in CM. DeanCo-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCHRD Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 I have never played a wargame in 25 years where I could stand on the engine deck of Wittman's tiger and ride along while he cuts through the 22nd. This game is too cool. So, naturally, as a paying customer, I want CM2 to be better. I want you to have the same investment in the game that I do. I don't want Combat Mission campaign disk, elite edition, wargame of the year, "with one new thing" all at 45 dollars a pop. Plus I want Panther II's, I want Brumbar's, I want the eastern front. Tomorrow will be fine. I want to embark a machine gun section on a bunker. I don't want to be one of those guy's who only finds fault, but this is my game and I'm going to ask for what I want whenever I think of something. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: It has to be more than Russians vs Germans <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually no that's more than enough for me. Seriously though not all battles were as big as operation Citadelle. What I think is so good about the CM concept is it's diversity, you can simulate just about any scale (within reason that is). No if it's one thing I've learned from my computer hobby it's never say it can't be done, everything can be done with smarts and time. Remember Gates anyone "640k ought to be enough for anyone" or something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: Let me play Devil's Advocate here about CM2. Apart from technical enhancements as BTS described, won't some gamers say 'been there, done that'? Because of the scale of the game and the small map area, you're not going to feel like you're invading Russia (as you would in a strategic/operational level wargame). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sure there will be recognition of the capabilities of current hardware when the team cut the new CM2 code. In addition, the combat model and corresponding code will evolve with each release and each patch, given the level of professionalism that every one involved with CM1 have shown to date! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It will still primarily be tanks/troops vs tanks/troops just like in CM1. Just because you got T-34s and other different unit models, they still fire ammos, and the tactics will still be nearly the same, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not necessarily, the Soviets had a very infexible military doctrine that went down to Platoon level. This will have major impact on tactics in CM2. Also, the late war Soviet AFV were much more evenly matched with German ones. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CM1 could've been placed in the Outbacks of Australia and still be wargame of the year because of its revolutionary model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> lol, Campers vs Dingos? We only have one Outback (not Outbacks), and there has never been a battle there (because it's too bloody hot to fight)! Mace [This message has been edited by Mace (edited 08-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlaz Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Too hot to fight in the Outback? Well, maybe someone once said the same thing about North Africa Actually, I think it would be interesting to see a little "alternative history" in CM (or CM2 or whatever). Make scenario maps patterned on small towns in southern England and play Operation Sealion. Pretend you're Patton, and send your US troops into the Russians -- or better yet, Montgomery Cheers, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 "Actually, I think it would be interesting to see a little "alternative history" " I gotta tell you I think the inability to have allies fighting Allies in CM is one of the best features in the game. I live in dread of the French VS Brits or Candians VS US scenarios that would emerge. Theres already more than anough nationalism to go around That said of course in CM2 the Rumanians will have to be able to fight on both sides _dumbo "I just want the ph@t l3wt d00d" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Thanks jdmorse, yes I understand CM2 will be a standalone product, just couldn't find any basis for an 'expansion pack' for CM:BO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 I would love an Outback Game. Just to download Matts Mod pack with a " Them dingo's just ate my baby" sound bite. Lorak ------------------ Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: Apart from technical enhancements as BTS described, won't some gamers say 'been there, done that'? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly. I said the same thing about the second time I had sex (especially the technical enhancements) and 15 years later I still love it. But seriously, never underestimate BTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Just remember by the time CM-2 comes out many players would have lost their jobs, wives and family members due to CM-1. Therefore a vast majority of players will be dealing with rebuilding their own pathetic lives instead of buying CM-2. BTS will be the target of a class action lawsuit by the wives of addicted players and may be to busy with trial lawyers to finish CM-2. oh the horror. So unless BTS starts providing marriage counseling they may very well be out of business in the not so distant future. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leatherneck Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Who among you doesn't look forward to seeing some Polish wz.34 armored cars advancing on your formation of Panzer II's, supported by Polish cavalry? Or Russian KV-1Aa or KV-85 heavy tanks opposing your Panzer IV Ausf G's? A re-play of a portion of the battle for Kursk, involving some of the most potent armor in history? Adding a Wirbelwind to defend your advancing elements against a Yak-7 straffing attack? Just think how awesome the .wav file will sound when that Russian FO calls in a Katyusha rocket attack. Crank that sound up on your Dolby stero system and watch the neighbors go running! The Russian heavy self propelled assault guns vs. Jagdpanthers .wav files should also rattle your teeth. Maybe we can see attacks on railroad yards, air strips, coastline towns with naval yards and marvel at the bravery of the Cossacks charging your dug-in infantry and support guns across the snow covered plains. Sign me up for two copies of CM2 (one for the home computer and the other for my work computer (even if it is only 300 MHz model with a 4Mb graphics card). Now if we can just work on improving the on-screen appearance of the smoking gun barrels and smoke screens we'll have it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leatherneck: Who among you doesn't look forward to seeing some Polish wz.34 armored cars advancing on your formation of Panzer II's, supported by Polish cavalry? Or Russian KV-1Aa or KV-85 heavy tanks opposing your Panzer IV Ausf G's? A re-play of a portion of the battle for Kursk, involving some of the most potent armor in history? Adding a Wirbelwind to defend your advancing elements against a Yak-7 straffing attack? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Oh cripes, I got so excited I just wet myself! Mace [This message has been edited by Mace (edited 08-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD: Exactly. I said the same thing about the second time I had sex <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You didn't say it OUT LOUD, did you? ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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