Jsoh Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 I downloaded the demo to CM and really enjoyed it, but I am totally new to wargaming and did not understand a great deal of the game. I have no idea what indirect fire is, or what the difference between a panzer and a sherman is, or what 81 mm shells do, or whether it is worth shooting at infantry in a foxhole at 250 m. Does the manual expalin all of the different types of tanks, and ammo, and infantry squads, and tactics, and everything else I am going to want to know? Thanks! Jsoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Of course you will. Please repost this message in our "Helpful Players in support of Newbies" section, the thread with the topic "Peng, I take our challenge public." There, dozens of hardened CMers will help you get acclimated to this wonderful game and its confusing terminology. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brethon Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 With 1185 posts on that thread, I doubt it will be easy for him to get an answer. Jsoh, let me say this. The only past experience I had with wargames was a couple of Close Combat demos. And I have grasped the game by the gonads. it's done in an amazing way so that it's realistic, yet easily accessible to the likes of you and me. But if you're in doubt, get the demo and try it, it's great fun. ------------------ The worst part of any conflict is peacekeeping, it is the time when only one side may fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artois Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jsoh: I downloaded the demo to CM and really enjoyed it, but I am totally new to wargaming and did not understand a great deal of the game. I have no idea what indirect fire is, or what the difference between a panzer and a sherman is, or what 81 mm shells do, or whether it is worth shooting at infantry in a foxhole at 250 m. Does the manual expalin all of the different types of tanks, and ammo, and infantry squads, and tactics, and everything else I am going to want to know? Thanks! Jsoh<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Jsoh, I pretty much guarantee that the game is more than playable to 'newbies'. You don't really have to know all that stuff about ranges, etc. to enjoy the game, and anyway, after a few hours you'll pick it up, knowing when to go for it and when to hang fire. You may even get interested in WWII... Hope you have fun, and if you need to know anything then just e-mail me, okay? Yours, Andy 'Artois' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mortiis Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Do yourself a favour and get this game now. The manual is well written and explains the basics with newbies in mind. Any other enquiries can be posted here and I have found that the members of this forum are more than happy to lend a hand to newbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brethon: With 1185 posts on that thread, I doubt it will be easy for him to get an answer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Getting an answer is the easy bit, understanding the great Hamster/Chinchilla debate is quite another matter. Jsoh, I think that while it helps to know all these things, and makes playing a lot easier, CM is very accessible and you can learn it. It is a complex game though, and it will take time to understand the various subtle things going on under the hood. Having said that, you don't need to, and there is no pressure to learn it fast (unless you insist on PBEMing an old-timer, that is). The manual supplied is excellent (about 180 pages) and explains almost everything. BTS has aimed this game at a wider market than wargamers, so they cover all the bases in there. If you liked the demo, get the game, you'll be learning-by-burning in no time. And welcome to the board. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Indirect fire is a term used to describe artillery and mortar fire directed at targets that the guns themselves cannot see. They are usually directed onto a target by an artillery spotter. The spotter has radio contact to the guns and directs fire onto them using map references. The Arty spotter is present on the field-the guns usually are not. Panzer is the German term for armor. There are many types of Panzers Mark IV's, Panthers, Tigers, Assault guns etc. In Combat Mission you are going to run into a vast array of German tank types and since the game is set in 1944-45 they all pack a pretty potent punch. Sherman is a type of US tank. It was used in terrific numbers by the Aliies but comes up a bit short in a tank to tank duel. The Allies used to say it took 5 Shermans to take out 1 Panther or Tiger. The 81mm is a mortar round- Both the Germans and the US used 81mm mortars as their basic battalion support weapon. The Germans also had a 120mm mortar that cast fear into the hearts of allied soldiers everywhere. The mm stands for millimeter and an 81mm mortar tube would have a 81 millimeter diameter measurement. I hope this helps and congratulations on picking the best wargame out there to get started on. Cheers from the windy city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 With regard to the tanks, German tanks generally have more armor and are slower than there allied counterparts. Think '20 pound sledgehammer.' Allied tanks, while faster, have thinner armor, and usually a smaller gun. I'd call them 'regular carpenter's hammer.' This is very general, and the are several exceptions. When fighting as the germans, keep the enemy tanks in front of yours. When fighting as the allies, keep moving and try to get a side or rear shot on the german tanks. There is nothing (ok, very little) that is more enjoyable than position a M5 Staut light tank so it gets a shot at the rear of a heavy Panther G. Talk about a beautiful kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsoh Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 I really appreciate all of your posts so quickly! Wow, I'm glad that the community is so involved, as that makes any game that much better. I think I've decided to purchase the game, but mostly because I did like the demo, and it sounds like I will be able to play the game despite how little I know. Chicago boy: I really do appreciate the post with all of the info. However, the point is that there are SO many similar questions that I can ask about that vast number of elements in the game. I was hoping there might be somewhere where I could get the answer to every question (hopefully the manual) but it sounds like I may have to learn it by experimentation (which takes longer and can be wrong.) Reading Arrow's post makes clear exactly my lack of knowledge: I have no idea what an M5 Stuat or a Panther G is and don't understand the significance of what he is saying. Reading the board is of very little help to me because I don't know the basics that most do about wargaming. I think I will be able to play the game solely using tactics, but I will not get out as much as everyone else seems to, becasue I will not understand the intricacies that seem to be what makes the game so appealing. Jsoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Jsoh, one word of warning. You must have a computer that is fairly powerful to enjoy the game fully. I have a 450MHz processor and a 34MB video card. If I play medium to large scenarios the game slows down quite a bit. This doesn't mean the game is unplayable but anything slower than this will frustrate you. Just be warned, low end computers may not make it for you in this game. If you can play the "Valley of Trouble" scenario in the Demo with no problems, than you're probably fine. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 I don't know if you really need a fast computer, I've been playing on a Pentium Pro laptop with a bare-bones video card (in fact I have no idea what video card is in this thing, it's not documented anywhere). As for the Staut, it was in fact called a "Stuart" (it was a typo I think). It's a little tank with a 37mm canon if I remember correctly, the neat thing about it is how fast its turret can turn, it puts larger tanks to shame in that respect. They blow up real good though, when you can hit them. Jagdpanthers (JagdPanzer V) are good for that. The Allied (British, Canadian) Churchill tanks are really tough, I am playing a game now and a Tiger and a Churchill have been firing at each other now for two turns, each one scoring multiple hits, but the only result is that they both immobilized each other. All the other hits just bounce off. Very entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Hey Jsoh,I'm new to wargames myself,I've found at least far as playing the demo goes,that just playing the game and hanging out here will answer your' questions as they come up. I'm waiting for my copy of the full game so's I can really get in to it! ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Jsoh, I was also mostly a "newbie" to WW2. I knew a bit more then you did, but I am far from a grog like some of these walking encyclopedias here. Do what I did: ask around this site for historical links to things which puzzle you. Don't know anything about tanks? Well no worry! Just follow this handy link. All the info provided is historical, and since CM is dead on realistic, can be used for the game! http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1975/g_wot_hp.htm That's just one link. I have several others which if you wish, I can post here. In fact, why don't all of us knowledgeble grogs post a few links here to help our newer friend. Who knows, we may even learn of a good side we didn't yet know! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 http://www.achtungpanzer.com/profiles.htm http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~jpipes/start.html http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2_links.html http://www.suite101.com/linkcategory.cfm/world_war_2/5323 Here are a few loaded with information. Welcome aboard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 If objective discriptins start getting dry, look for first person autobiographical accounts of WWII experences. In my eyes there is no better way to get into WWII than to slog along in the boots of someone one who was there and is a talented writer. You can't do any better than read Charles McDonald's book, Company Commander. There are other excellent ones out there. When people like these grab you with the way it really was in the unwashed flesh, wet, freezing, tired on top tired, more boredom than action, and action that became an explosion of emotion that few ever experence in immediate life and death moments. It ranges from pure terror to the more grinding every day wondering whether one will live up the the demands of being the kind of person that you so desparately want to be, as a member of a bonded brotherhood of those guys you live with everyday, that is in many ways closer than the husband-wife relationship. I saw Charles McDonald on a televison program showing him conducting a tour of the battlefield where the 2nd Division fought in the Rochterath-Krinkelt battle in December of 1944. He located the remaining depression in the earth that was his old foxhole. I remember as a child seeing newspaper maps showing a spreading stain of black ink growing larger by the day, as the German incursion during the Battle of the Bulge grew larger and larger. I caught the concern it caused in my parents and so those visual images burned in my memory, while that young (7), I still recall and relive the dread atmosphere it raised in my home when that memory arises. This war still lives in the surviving veterans. I have seen tears on the cheeks of old men when a reenactmant of those scenes they lived through get too real. As at Galveston, Texas a couple or three years back when in a staged island invasion involving Sherman Tanks, landing craft etc. with blank ammo and pyrotechnics and aircraft overhead really creating an atmosphere, 200 participants of a new generation with the uniforms and equipment of period including a working flamethrower make those old guys know they were appreciated and honored in a far stronger fashon than mere ceremonies and back slapping can ever convey. These young people were reaching deep within themselves to find something as close as possible there to that long ago experence. This is not stuff of books and grog lists and discriptions, it still lives and breathes. That first edition of the war back in 1918 for Americans and rather earlier for others, kinda flew over my head as well. It still does not provide simular impressions on me the the second edition did. That it was only 23 years earlier than when my 4 year old mind became hazily aware of the parent and relative crowd and something they much talked about with serous emotional overtones, Pearl Harbor. So I can understand via the hazy notions of WWI in my youth, why a lot of folks now have difficulty with even more recient actions than WWII. That a game like Combat Mission can inspire new generations to get into contact with strands of life still existing today and still impacting even the unaware, is a fine tribute to its power to evoke an aspect of the era. Perhaps in 30 years Jsoh will be teaching some newby what a Sherman is. We had one in this town until reciently and still have the Stewart (Honey to the British) and a Priest as well some Jananese tanks. About 4 or 5 times a year one can see the Stewart in action again attacking a pill box with blank firing. WWII aint the only one. I remember how the American Revolution was so hard to grasp through modern eyes which just could not comprehend a war in which one side lost so many battles or positions and ended up winning in the end. A board game called, 1776, came along and so many things began to make sense. Some people can not comprehend why the interest in war and in being in war, especially on losing sides. There are a lot simple human instincts at work and it is after all play in many aspects, but play with a serious element. By getting as much inside of the thing as possible, one can began to comprehend some deep human realities as it existed in another time. It is not really about the equipement and uniforms, but what it was to be one of those people, are no different from us. I have noted a recient thread concerning people getting into the persona of their former enemies. I have often considered how here in this country, which like many others is populated by folks who tend to think, that somehow they are special beyond the rest, and that terrible things that are known to have happened in other places and times just could not happen here. Well the population here has the same kind of people in it with the same capabilities for good and evil. We have lived to see Communism fall apart in Europe and persist in rather altered form in mainly Asia. It could have not happened here. Or could it. Do we forget how many people in the Depression era here began to look to socialistic solutions and a goodly number its communist form. We did install a number of institutions into American life out of the movement gained in that direction then. Nations caught in the floods of calumanity and distress that severely challange the fabric of what constitutes "normal" life there are succeptable to having abnormal elements surge to the top. That such elements may have absolutly no compuctions against lying, stealing, and violance may in no way hender their rise. The people of the United States have enough examples of blood lust grabbing a subpopulation and finding a large body of the citizens on the side of and justifying that violence. We so justify the "Good War". Well it was not good at all. There were actions of nations against Germany following WWI that added incredably to the strength of the abnormal segments of German society with convincing their fellow countrymen that the situation required strong measures. Depression era America also agreed with them, that strong measures were necessary. We were just fortunant that our stresses were not as great or of a kind with Germany, and that our population was not as desparate for remedy as to enable a totally fringe element to bring their cracked ideals to the top. Had we done so would we have found recruits to the cause? Would our "ordinary" people climbed on the bandwagon? You bet they would. If Americans stressed to simular straights as the Germans were, given hope, employment, release from a great deal of fear, a turn around in the economy, then the patriotic jingosim, of an American populace would be inspired and available to turn against somescape goat segment of the population or against an other nation populated with non-us'es. At least enough to become widely scandalous. We did not complain about Japanese internment in the 1940's and the consfiscation of their property to the benifit of some members of the rest of the people. Complaints against slavery were small and not very significant, as far as threatening the institution, even up to the Civil War. Even in the North, not within the population at large. That these were free states was as much a sense of freedom from having these Blacks as nearby neighbors. These abominations to a white society were, if anything, less tolerable to many Northern whites as an element living in their comunities than their Southern countrymen who did have them in theirs. This was a much more widespread sentiment than winning history recorded for a long time. This very normal and human evil feeling was not universal, but did give evidence in quite a number of Northern army regiments which tended to even shoot Blacks as undesirables and causes of the war, as popular opinion had it, when that could be done out of the presence of censuring outsiders. Slavery, inspite of a very vocal and slowly increasing minority, was at least tolerated by the Northern section. After all it profited them too, and they did not have to have them living among them. They could import cheap European labor escaping the rigid class structure and locked social positon, if not downright surfdom and have white servants in the house and workplace. It was more seemly. Are these Southern words seeking justification? Well as hyprocritical as Northern minds became as war especially inspired criticism of the other section, what sophistry and hypocrisy exceeds Southern use of claiming Christian sanctions for the practice of slavery? It was a National evil, not just a Southern one. To paraphrase Samuel Clemens, "If you get all the fools to cast their votes for a candidate, that is a majority in any town. Foolishness is rather more widespread than we like to think. Of course it is something that afflicts the other fellow. I find it very easy to comprehend how the German people were led down the primrose path. I see these capabilities as inherently human, not German alone. All nations have some paticular as well as general traits available for exploition. We see them everyday. So we do well to look at the horror of war and its universal appeal and to know it as closely as possible. In a game as realistic as CM we see how easily death is obtained on the battlefield. And if that were not enough, it brings death to a much wider sphere as well. If we can know its appeal in us and its consequences of death and destruction, then we have made a step in making that most applicable of knowledges, knowing thy self. It is an enemy faced in the mirrow. Sometimes I think whole populations grow bored with ordinary humdrum elements of prosperity, poverty, and the usual daily socital triumphs and tragiedies and just itch for some speical excitement. Nothing like a war in prospect to make identifying with Us particularly thrilling and dealing properly with Them so satisfying. A bully sport. Unless you lose. Well, here's to the losers; they are also us. Perhaps that is why so many don the uniforms and the paraphinalia of the other side. Losing has a curiosity, expecially when the losers did so in extraordinarily prolonged, ingenious and often militarily successful ways that came to nothing in the end. Note Civil War reeactments where it is often necessary to fill the ranks of the Northern Blue out of "Reconstructed Grey" soldiers as that is a popular uniform even above the Mason and Dixon Line. I wonder if Lee has more soldiers than Grant, in the European, American Civil War reenactment groups too. Gee how I wander. It is CMs fault. Anyone's or anything's but mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: Of course you will. Please repost this message in our "Helpful Players in support of Newbies" section, the thread with the topic "Peng, I take our challenge public." There, dozens of hardened CMers will help you get acclimated to this wonderful game and its confusing terminology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Leave newbies alone, you rodent! Get back to the Thread of Threads, or start another 'soon to be locked down' philosophical discussion (Bobbaro will probably follow you over). And don't whine about not having an turn from me yet, it's your own fault for making me play the Axis. Like Jsoh, I have to go read up on my unit types so as to find the right hammer to nail you with. Jsoh, if you enjoyed the Demo at all, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't enjoy the game even more. Experiment with it; playing against the computer will help familiarize you with the unit types and what they can do. Also, there are a number of articles over at the Combat Mission HQ http://combathq.thegamers.net/ that help explain some good, basic tactics that might help. And there are many helpful people here on this Board, who would be happy to answer straightforward questions, or help point the way to where you could get good answers. This game is surprisingly easy to pick up and get going with quickly. Getting good at it takes a little longer, but the journey's great fun. The manual is easy to use, and there are a couple of tutorial scenarios included with the full game. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Not to worry! CM has got to be the most intuitively user-friendly "wargame" I've ever played --- as far as understanding the interface goes. Tactics are another thing entirely... All ya have to know is this: The larger number you see in front of the letters "mm" the better, and the more Firepower Factors you can pour into a single concentrated area the mo' better. Oh --- and the "Search" function is yr friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 I didn't know any of that stuff either and just by playing and hitting 'Enter' to see the stats from time to time, I've gotten better. So if you lose the first 4 games or so, it will just make it that much sweeter when you win the 5th one or whatever. Making mistakes will teach you quick, just look at your guys, and watch them closely. All will be revealed. Good luck to you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noba Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Is the Borg asleep? on holiday ? playing with hamsters ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The CM Borg Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Jsoh and Splinty Prepare yourselves for imminent Assimilation ------------------ Resistance is Futile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Jsoh, Get the Game! The manual is very helpful, but more important there are several tutorial scenarios that walk you htrough things. Enjoy ------------------ "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- King Henry VI, Part II, Act 4, sc.2, l.86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jsoh: I downloaded the demo to CM and really enjoyed it, but I am totally new to wargaming and did not understand a great deal of the game. I have no idea what indirect fire is, or what the difference between a panzer and a sherman is, or what 81 mm shells do, or whether it is worth shooting at infantry in a foxhole at 250 m. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No sweat, play a pbem game with me and you'll learn all that really fast (Sorry guys, but I gotta do sumptin' to win a pbem game...) Kidding aside, understanding the capabilities and limitations of the various weapons is an important factor in becomeing good at this game. Start with playing the AI in small scenarios, read After Action Reports by players, and you will be well on the way to becoming a Guderian!...Would you believe a Montgomery?...Would you believe a Sgt Steiner?...Would you believe a Corporal Klink?... Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noba Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 Borg. Hop over to the thread "obsevations on hull down" Joeri is waiting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jsoh: Reading Arrow's post makes clear exactly my lack of knowledge: I have no idea what an M5 Stuat or a Panther G is and don't understand the significance of what he is saying. Reading the board is of very little help to me because I don't know the basics that most do about wargaming. Jsoh<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jsoh - David and Goliath is a pretty good analogy for the M5 Stuart and Panther G. The M5 is a "light tank" intended mostly for scouting. It's fast, but has relatively light armor and a not-too-powerful gun. The Panther (G is just the model, a number of improvements were made) on the other hand is regarded as one of the best German tanks of the war. Heavy armor, powerful main gun, etc. Usually, one would never think that a M5 would have a chance against a Panther. The catch here is that, while tanks like the Panther have heavy armor, most of that is concentrated in the front... the sides are much lighter (A very important lesson for a newbie). The gun on the M5 can't penetrate the front armor of a Panther, but can penetrate the sides (up close anyway). If handled correctly (and with a lot of luck) the M5 can zip around so fast the Panther will have a hard time hitting it. In addition, the heavy turret of the Panther may not even be able to rotate fast enough to keep the M5 in it's sights. If the M5 survives to get close and to the side or rear of the Panther, the Panther's toast. On paper, German tanks have all the edge, but it's little things like this that people often forget (and that make the game so interesting). That you enjoy the game is a good sign. Play around and experiment... you'll get a good idea of what works and what doesn't with experience. This board is a good source of information too. ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 Jsoh, let me add to these great posts as well. My background is 19th and 18th century military history and I have played a number of wargames of those periods. Even though I had always wanted to learn more about WW2, it just wasn't a priority. I heard about CM late last year and got the game when it first came out. I knew that if I wanted to play a WW2 wargame, this has to be the one. However, keep in mind that CM models small-scale tactical combat. You are not going sweep the beaches of Normandy, or break the Atlantic Wall from Switzerland to Belgium, or with CM2, invade (or defend) Russia. CM is strictly tactical where the placement of units on one side of the road or the other could mean the difference between victory or defeat. Or even firing a weapon at just the right time. Your goals will be things like taking out a bridge, capturing an intersection, getting from one side of the map to the other and many other small-scale variations. With CM you will get a great feel for tanks, zooks, MGs, infantry movements and placements and such, but not grand strategies and operations. I don't know what other games you play, but I play Civilization alot. To understand WW2 better as a whole, I first played a fantastic custom WW2 scenario that involved the whole European Theatre. There, playing the Allies, I had to defend Britain, plan my bombing raids to the continent, decide grand invasion strategies in N. Africa and Italy, and figure out how use the Soviets and the resources of the US. It was not until after I played that did I felt I could get into the small-scale tactics of CM. I just finished the tutorial and like many others, I had a hard time understanding and planning for successful tactics. I need to read more articles and AARs at the CombatHQ, as well as the specific scenario helps in this forum. CM is intimidating for a non-wargamer or for one with little understanding of WW2. But if you want to become interested in WW2 combat, there is no better game than CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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