German strategies in Last Defense

[Peterk]

Hi guys,

I am really having trouble with this one. I've tried all kinds of different approaches and have yet to produce an attack that works like a charm. Any ideas on basic strats?

I have a feeling that attacking on a broad front with only the 3 platoons isn't really a great idea so it comes down to massing everyone either on the left or on the right side, and I'm pretty much failing with both.

Do the Germans have any chance of winning this thing if they lose all 3 AFVs without taking out a hellcat? Those bloody reinforcements are a royal pain in the butt! I like to use my Tiger for close support in the first 10 turns, but the second the M-10s show up they get lots of free shots because my armor is preoccupied and get surprised a bit. And the alternative is keeping them back on the hill at 1000m where they don't do very much of anything for the first third of the scenario.

The next time I play I'm going to smoke up the entire Yank hilltop so the cats don't get any shots when they show. Cheating, yes, but I'm frustrated and depserate.

Argh!

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm going to smoke up the entire Yank hilltop <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you know how to do that, then you already know how to win legitimately. Fire the smoke where a German commander would order it, instead of using foreknowledge to cheat, and you'll be well on your way.

The cool thing about CM is that no attack is going to "work like a charm" thanks to the flexibility of the AI.

There have been numerous threads on LD and strategies for it from both sides. Try Search. Also, the current thread called "Panzer Tactics (Very Interesting)" is well, very interesting.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The next time I play I'm going to smoke up the entire Yank hilltop so the cats don't get any shots when they show. Cheating, yes, but I'm frustrated and depserate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know that that would be cheating. The very first time I played that scenario, that is exactly what I did. I figured that the Americans would have a s#%tload of artillery, and the hill looked like the best place to have OPs... so I had all three batteries smoke the hell out of it.

[Mark IV]

It isn't cheating if you decided to do it as a sensible strategy, without foreknowledge that on a certain turn, 3 Hellcats would appear on the road.

In Peterk's dilemma it is cheating by his own admission. He is using his foreknowledge to adopt a tactic artificially.

In Riesberg it is theoretically possible that the US would call for shelling the hill on the left at the beginning "in case" any nasties were there. However, if previous experience with the same scenario taught you that there is a very high probability the AI will have a gun there and you use the knowledge to call for a barrage there (before the gun is spotted), it is cheating.

As an experiment with the AI it's OK and doesn't make you a bad person. But it's still a big fat gamey cheat.

[Guest Zigster]

Guilty as charged. I always shell the hill and lay smoke screens in the right places.

I think you should punish me by releasing the game so I won't have to play the same three scenarios over and over...and over...and over.....

[Berlichtingen]

Peterk,

Ok, to answer question:

1) Read the first post in this thread http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002715.html

2) Smoke is your friend (and no, I'm not talking about smokin' the hill)

[This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 01-23-2000).]

[Mikeathome]

Here's one exciting way to approach the game:

Send the PzGren platoon into the town on it's H/T's at "move fast" speed, and dismount it into the 2-story buildings on the right hand side of the road.

Leave the lead H/T empty (the spare squad can be commanded by the Company HQ) and put it down the L/H side of the road, and the others down the RH side.

However remember to give your infantry orders to debus - in my current game my H/T's got there so fast that I hadn't given the infantry move orders. The Amis' all turned to face & shot them to bits the enxt turn - had I debussed immediately I would probably have taken 0 casualties. However I still have 1 full squad in the middle of hte town having lots of fun with the Ami Bn HQ :0

But the main pay off from this isthat ALL the american infantry will start shooting - if your observers are in good positio then you know EXACTLY where to smoke and HE on T2!

Mike

[Herr Oberst]

My plan, which actually worked fairly well the first time.

2 Stg's lead off on the left, followed quickly by the 4 HT's who debarked troops into the woods on the left. Use these Stgs and supporting Infantry to clear the line of houses along the road. Once a building is cleared, tuck the Stg's in along side the building (shielded from the hill where who knows what is located).

All FO's start disembarked, and work their way down through the woods to the center, along with one of the platoons.

Last platoon sneaks along the right, and hunkers down for use later when the middle is softened up. Tiger was in reserve up top of the hill near the house when the M18's showed up. Scratch 3, although the Tiger was disabled with a track hit, making it a well-armored 88 emplacement.

After sweating out the M-18s, the Stg's and infantry procedded to level the town, and mop up the hill in the end.

No HTs survived, all victims of mortars through the roof... :<

[Peterk]

Well, I finally won, but it wasn't pretty. I stuck everything over on the left hand side and worked my way slowly and methodically through to the center of town and then held against a poorly executed counterattack.

Maikeathome,

The suicide loaded halftracks tactic is definitely a lot of fun and I just tried it as well. But in my case I got a mortar spotter, a HQ and a squad and a half blasted to bits upon arrival in the city center. The squad and a half that survived scrambled into unnoccupied buildings and I thought that I could really use those positions to wreak some havok in the yanks' backcourt. No luck, they surrendered within a minute - but I had the satisfaction of liberating them later on.

Thanks to all for the replies.

p.

[Fester]

On the issue of "Cheating" as it pertains to reinforcements arriving on the hill on or about move 10.

If you've played the scenario once, you "KNOW" that reinforcements are on the way, and that theyre comming down that particular road.

Even if you dont target the hill on move 8 so that arty starts falling when the hellcats arrive, your movements are still going to be cautionary towards move 9 to set up for the hellcat arrival.

This knowledge is not cheating, its "information" When playing PBEM Ill ask how we should handle it, a good solution is to hold off on actual artillary targeting until the reinforcements appear.

Simply treat this information as something that was covered in the brief

"A reinforcement of armor is enroute, ETA ~ 10 minutes."

My point is you cant "pretend" that you dont know the information, however, you can deal with it in a sportsmanlike manner.

-Fester

[Major Tom]

Gee, this topic will be talked to death.

I feel that it is ok to cheat defensively, that is, to hide your troops and AFV's from the enemy. I don't think it is ok to cheat offensively, to target the area with Arty when the troops appear out in the open.

This not only happens in Last Defense, but, if you have enough initiative you can interfere with the other reinforcements in the other battles.

With the actuall game coming out soon there will be an infinite number of scenarios, we probably won't have to worry about this much then. You can even have multiple battles on the same maps with different units without much trouble in this sort of cheating.

[Fionn]

Personally I entered my PBEM games where I was the Germans in LD pretending I didn't know the Hellcats were coming. In one game this cost me a Tiger and StuG which were on the road the turn they came in..

After a little while I figured out that everyone was using perfect knowledge of my OOBs etc so I started dropping smoke on the hill so that the US would have to maneuvre a little to get shots thus creating a more equal contest and one in which it was unpredictable where they'd emerge from the smokescreen. I found this a good compromise.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Jarmo]

Bring your tanks forward, shoot the crap out of the enemy.

Don't hesitate to fire at unsure targets, you have only 10 turns to waste your tank ammo

After couple of turns of suppressive fire, launch a concentrated offensive. Use all your arty support to keep the enemy down while advancing. Also bring out all halftracks, they are good for drawing fire.

If you manage to occupy the village before t:10, you win.

Even if you lose all the tanks, nothing is lost. HC:s have little ammo, and they can't come near. (Panzerfausts)

One time I forced the AI to surrender despite losing all my tanks (all 3 HC:s remaining).

[Guest L Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The suicide loaded halftracks tactic is definitely a lot of fun and I just tried it as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually go for the slow and methodical attack (clear the isolated house & treeline, then consolidate and attack the town) but recently I decided to change up and be aggressive. I sent my leg infantry up into the woods on the German right to sweep for AT teams, moved the mounted Panzer Grenadiers to the point the road passes through the gap in the woods, and waited for my observers to move through the woods and call in smoke missions along the road and in the town. As soon as the smoke started landing, I sent my halftracks down the road to the crossroads where the infantry was to dismount and clear the buildings, while the remainder of the force advanced under cover of the smoke.

Despite some coordination problems (the lead halftrack was slow to start, so it got bumped into and the halftracks got all strung out instead of moving in a group) I got the entire platoon into the town with minimal losses. I know at least two bazooka shots missed my speeding halftracks. Plus, the big payoff: I caught the American .50 caliber in the middle of the road as my halftracks came speeding by.

After this, mopping up got a bit bloody, but I did manage to capture a couple squads and 3 machine gun teams. By the time the US reinforcements showed up, there were only a few broken remnants cowering on the riverbank, and I had troops in the buildings facing the river. (Then I got cute and played "hunt the hellcat" with my Tiger and got it killed.) The Panzer Grenadiers took losses (about 50% IIRC), but they gave a LOT better than they took. L'audace, toujours l'audace.

Leland J. Tankersley

[Doug Beman]

Soon after the first two beta battles were release to us slackass posterboys, there was a big to-do about artillery being very random in its impact patter (since been fixed) Just out of curiousity, I started up LD and played deliberately anticipating the Hellcats' appearance. Around Turn 8 I would target the hilltop with all my arty. In 3 games I think I killed 2 Hellcats.

It's kind of ironic; if you want to you can can use your prior knowledge to unfairly target the arty, but it's not nearly as effective as it should be (compared to the full game) After the full game is out with the new arty routines, prior knowledge will be impossible. It all balances out.

DjB

[Guest TOBRUK]

I would just like to point out that in some very early thread Steve pointed out that the appearance of the Hellcats et al was only about 90% certain in turn 10. I believe this means they could appear earlier or later.

In an LD by PBEM I gave my artillery ( & mortar) orders in turn 8 to incinerate the hilltop in anticipation. It started falling in turn 9, continued like gangbusters through turn 10, then began to run out of ammo by turn 11. Needless to say the reinforcements arrived in turn 11 (from my perspective). They already had orders and quickly dispersed down the hill, and arrived on the front fully intact. My artillery was depleted.

I lost that battle. Lesson learned.

The issue of 'gamey cheats' is a different one. I still think pounding the hill as you assault the town might be justifiable tactics based on a desire to isolate the defenders from reinforcement, but I don't do it anymore.

[Doug Beman]

Hitting the hilltop with arty to cut off the route reinforcements would use is IMHO only gamey if the only way you even suspect they'll arrive is by prior knowledge. If the battle briefing does not mention reinforcements coming (LD's briefing does, but many others will not) then arty'ing the reinforcement arrival area is a waste of arty (unless you have lots and/or there are not other targets for it)

If the briefing specifically states "the enemy will get no reserves" but the enemy DOES, then I feel it is the player's responsibility to play that battle every time, ignoring the reinforcements the enemy will get. I'm sure there will be many battles like this, where one side's "higher command" blatantly screws up on their assessment of the enemy's ability to reinforce the battle area

(glances at WildBill, Fionn, et al)

Right?

DjB

[Lorak]

Am i missing something? I've won LD from both sides. Played as germans first. I lost one stug when the hellcats showed up.. but keeping my tanks safe is just the way i normally play. My problem is i always loose my half tracks to mortar fire. And as the allies (played them second time, so i had an idea of what was comming) But i always loose one or two of the hellcats as soon as they show up. I issue move fast orders as soon as i can.. but to no avail.

Anyone interested in a PBEM game? I'd like to play a human to see how bad i really am.

Lorak

P.S. sorry i ramble

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"A stupid man dies a stupid death."

[Borgiax]

Well, i've always won on Last defence.

Here's my favourite German tactic however: concentrating all my armour (stugs and Tiger) with infantry on the guys near the house in the left, with HTs sweeping along the road, this way i hold the US inf under massive fire and elimnate it quickly. Then i continue along the road toward the town: thus when the HC arrive, my armour is hopefully behind the houses. I then play cat and mice…

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Obersturmfuhrer Borgiax

[Neutral Party]

My approach to LD as Germans is to first decide whether the Schwerpunkt is to be on the right side or the left side. Either will work - at least against the AI. The purpose of the tiger is to provide anti-armor coverage of the only possible route for incoming reinforcements, so it stays close to where it begins - maybe even further back. At this range it is relatively safe from AP although I have occasionally seen a weak point kill. The purpose of the stugs is to shell the buildings - preferably those where the US troops are. I tend to load them with HMGs and advance them down the left side of the woods. Stop while still in cover, debark HMG teams into the woods and find them good firing positions. Meanwhile run the foot infantry (2 platoons) to approx half-way through the central woods or to the beginning of right side woods then sneak them forward until they have LOS. Once HMGs and/or infantry platoons can provide covering fire, bring the stugs round and start demolishing things. Depending on whether it is a right or left side attack, I try to isolate a small region of the battlefield with mortar smoke. This reduces the enemy ability to provide fire support. My aim is to have a massive numerical advantage in this region. One platoon of foot infantry provides fire support while the other uses fire and movement to get to the nearest objective.

The HTs with pz grenadier platoon + arty FO remain hidden - either behind the trees close to the initial foot infantry set-up positions for a right side attack or in the dead ground behind the small rise for a left attack. These troops will be a rapid and fresh assault force that will be committed at an opportune moment. When these guys go they go fast. They will take either the two buildings on the other side of the wall on the left including the objective or the two buildings on the other side of the wall on the right including the church. Get everybody off the HTs quick. The arty FO should have LOS to the reinforcement route. HTs provide fire support.

Once the rapid assualt team has been committed and have captured their objectives they (and HTs) may be able to provide flanking fire. However the details of their mission will vary depending on the enemy dispositions and the smoke position. Usually their very presence means that the enemy will attempt some sort of redeployment and generally will start getting bent out of shape. Depending on circumstances this may be the signal for a general advance.

The hellcats are irrelevant - by the time they arrive the stugs should have done their job and if they get popped it's no big deal. Anyway the tiger will usually whack the hellcats with impunity if it has LOS.

Sit back, drink beer, eat yankee chocolate

Joe

[Guest MantaRay]

This is what I worry about the most. When we will play a PBEM game, I wonder if after a while that people will just pretty much know where all of the units are comming from. I hope this will not be the case, but I fear it will.

And on LD, I have never fired a smoke round, but I do try to get my AG's out of the LOF of those Panzer killers, and since I know they are comming, maybe it is almost cheating...but mighty hard to forget when those Cats keep taking out all of my AFV's.

Ray

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[coe]

I placed my Tiger at the top of the road

along with a machine gun, a squad, platton

hq and an 81 mm spotter ,and a 105 mm spotter

The 2 Sturmgeschutz and the Half Tracks

went in the right and the rest of the

infantry running that way into the woods.

Tiger planted smoke down the road and so

did the Stug on the house near the farm.

Arty placed smoke on the farm on the left

and then just past the bridge and at the

intersection

this reduced enemy supporting fire from the

left. I had Pretty much two intact platoons

company hq and a 81 mm observer and took

the right side of town...oh yeah did I mention the two StuG and two surving half

tracks. I made the second platoon do a run

for it under lots of smoke and covering fire

because I messed up a bit on the half tracks

and lost two of them. I was able to bring

a machine gun over. As soon as the cats came

in sight, the two half tracks and StuGs

went for cover and didn't move (they were

behind buildings). Lost the tiger but got

a hellcat. I took the entire town - question: has anyone actually moved across the bridge and taking the houses past the town?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ray, this will happen if you keep playing the same scenarios over and over again as with the demo. But after a couple of weeks of CM being released I would expect there to be more than a hundred scenarios available for download, with a couple dozen more being posted every day or so on various sites. Plus, you can PBEM/Net using the Design Your Own feature as well. Something like 2 billion possible games in there to try out

Point is that replayability is only good once or twice per side, depending on the scenario. But since there are endless numbers of scenarios to play, this is not a real problem.

Steve