AFV - Bang for the Buck?

[Aussie Smith]

Ok Guys

I'm interested to hear others comments on what AFV's offer the best point cost value for each of the 3 major nationalities in the game. I'm going to start the ball rolling with my candidates for this award and the reasons behind why I think these are so good:-

Germany

The Panzer IV 70.

This AFV has good to excellent armour protection, an excellent gun, low silhouette and decent but not great mobility. For the cost it is by far better value than the Mk IV Panzer and it is the perfect partner for a good hill position with wide area's of view with or without a hull down possie.

USA

The Hellcat.

What can one say - cheap, very fast, low silhouette and a kick ass gun - Germans beware - this beast has a fast turret rotate - and a gun that can drive through even the vaunted Panther frontally at a decent (slightly close) range. IMO this tank represents the overall award for most effective AFV for a price.

Britain.

The Daimler AC.

While not an AFV in the true sense of the word (ala Tank - TD - AG) this little guy can kick big ass if used correctly - its bloody fast, has a decent gun that can kill tanks side on or from the rear and comes at a price that even the most insane Brit would be mad not to spend. Put a couple of these together and infantry/AFV's are going to be hunted.

Cheers

Craig

[Mace]

The one problem with jagdpanzers is that once immobilised, they're relatively ineffective due to lack of traverse.

btw great to see another Aussie here

Mace

[Jarmo]

Have to agree with PzIV/70 it can beat just about everything

the allies throw against it.

Other excellent german is the heavy AC that looks like a puma

but has a 75mm gun.

For the allies, M36 is perfect against big germans, but I'm

still tempted to suggest Sherman Jumbo.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Pacestick]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace:

The one problem with jagdpanzers is that once immobilised, they're relatively ineffective due to lack of traverse.

btw great to see another Aussie here

Mace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with the pz IV/70 is that it does not have a MG making it a duck when it comes to infantry once its loadout of HE rounds are gone. I have to agree that it is a mean tank killer though

Craig

What are you doing posting here when you should be playing your turns. You will soon get to see first hand just how good the PZIV/70 is

[Guest KwazyDog]

Actually, I quite like the armoured cars all round.

The 37mm on the greyhound isnt to be sneezed at. I managed to take out 2 Mk IV's and 2 Stugs with 2 greyhounds in 2 minutes in one game You have to work around for a side or rear shot but thankfully they have the speed to allow you to do this. From these angles the 37mm punches right through the thinner armour. Take care of them though, and use them only in ambush roles where you opponent is busy elsewhere.

The puma with its 50mm is a great scout vehicle with the back up ability of being able to be used as an anti armour vehicle. Head on can yeild mixed results, especially against the heavier armoured vehicle where its pretty much useless, but again from the sides and rear and does very well. In fact, I lost an M36 to a frontal turret shot against one

Mace, there are quite a few Aussies here, funnily enough, hehe.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 08-08-2000).]

[Hunter]

There are some people here that aren't Australian?!

Bruce

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Heh hunter...meybe so, but they don't count! Just kidding O.K. I had an inkling of a flame coming my way...

Regards

Jim R.

[RMC]

Hmm. I don't particularly care for the Jagdpanzers. They are too specialized and can't be used to effectively combat infantry after the enemy armor is gone. Stugs at least have a couple MGs.

I like Pumas, but have learned not to want them in CM. They are too easily killed by MG fire.

I haven't used an M36, but there must be something wrong with it because the point value is too low.

Firelflies are pretty good bargain. I also like the Churchill VIII (95mm Howitzer). It can kill pretty much any allied Ueber Panzer with a HEAT round and it has the armor like a Jumbo (almost) but costs around 60 points less. On the downside it is slow and the howitzer is inaccurate at range, but it's great for wiping out infantry formations. Crocodiles are very nice, too thought the 75mm lacks punch.

I also think the M24 is a good tank, but I can't comment on it's price-performance ratio. I have only used them in pre-made scenarios not QBs.

I used to like the Pz IV but now I hate them.

T-8s seem to be a good use of 22 points especially when you need to max out your points. They can kill any German HT or AC with ease and are resistant to anything shy of a Faust, Schreck or tank. Their weakness is lack of ammo.

But there are so many vehicles I haven't tried yet it's hard to really come up with the best of all for each nationality and usage.

[M Hofbauer]

pretty all of my favorites have been mentioned here already.

I love the JPz IV/L70(V) ever since I built one as a model as a kid. problem with it is it's low side armor, and a blindness when buttoned that seems to be especially pronounced with the JPz IV/L70. The other thing, as RMC pointed out and which I came to learn the hard way in a QB against a whole shlew of american infantry (against americans I was preparing for tank +AFVs, not inf) was its ineffectiveness versus infantry. The american squads actually chased around my Jagdpanzers like a gang of wolves wouldchase around sheep. This was however because of two inadequacies of CM: for one, the accompanying LMG 42 teams did not manage to hold back / suppress the enemy infantry with their MG fire, and secondly, the tanks cant simply by themselves pose a threat to soldiers by rolling over them.

The JPz's ammo loadout is too low, too. I think with both the JPz, the Hetzer and the long-barreled StuGs the AP:HE ratio is modeled wrong with much too much HE, these were tank killers, not infantry support vehicles. StuGs shopuldn't have any smoke rounds at all for a regular mission.

A mobility kill for a JPz IV/L70 is always an effective kill since it's field of fire is VERY limited. The problem also exists with the Hetzer and the other tank hunters. The problem is that you still have to depend on these vehicles since the germans lack anything like the Sherman. The Pz IV with it's slow turret and the nonexistant "do not expose to sunlight" front armor does not fill that slot.

The Churchill VIII seems to have a nice AT power thanks to it's hollow-charge ammo, but only on the paper, because it suffers from the same problem that most vehicles firing hollow charge rounds have: since the hc is a special ammo, and ammo allocation is arbitrary to a degree, you might end up with 10 rounds, or with only one. And after those are spent, it's AP value is slightly below zilch, although it might immobilize a StuG / JPz (result: see above under JPz IV).

The Firefly is a good choice since the way CM models them with their tungsten ammo they can blow up any german AFV. The Jumbo Shermans are good too, the 75mm one is practically immune to anything up to and including the Panther, and has the ammo loadout for extended fire exchanges or fire support. The 76mm Jumbo of course is a godsend since it is not only heavily protected but also has the magic 76 that will kill anything. Despite the HEAVY turret the jumbos don't seem to suffer respectively from an according decrease in turret speed.

The T-8 is an excellent bang-for-buck vehicle. They are considerably armored, awfully fast and the 50cal makes short work of all german light armor and even kills StuGs from the rear at close distance. It has all the values of a tank yet doesn't infringe upon your valuable limited ARMOR budget. Indeed is is so much a bargain buy that I conscientiously have to be careful in battles not to buy too many of those since that would be gamey, because if you bought a good half or dozen dozen (depending on size of battle) of those and put Zooka teams onto them, you could swarm the enemy and take out anything.

Not sure about the Hellcat. yes it packs a good punch and it's terribly fast, but it's open-topped and all-around has very little armor (allergic to anything that comes from the sky); usually all it takes is some well-positioned 2cm FlaK and the Hellcat's out of the game. Hellcats are QUICK in every aspect: they drive quickly, kill quickly, and die quickly. They are of little value vs infantry, since if there is infantry around, it will usually button up and not use the 50cal. But then, they were never meant for anti-inf work.

the Bren MG carrier is an interesting vehicle, fast with lots of ammo and very cheap, unfortunately I find it noticeably unwilling to open fire at enemy targets. Similar goes for the SdKfz 250/9 on the german side. With the 2cm and the MG it should be an infantry devastator, but with it being strangely uninclined to open fire at infantry, together with CMs handling of automatic weapons as if they were firing single rounds (=bursts), both vehicles can easily be charged by infantry running up to them.

my vote:

Tomania: Hetzer: quite cheap, able to knock most things out and survive quite a bit with it's low silhouette and the sloped front. it's not king of the hill but the best all-around choice for everyday work at low price. inferior to the JPz IV/L70 in anti-armor work, it is superior in anti-inf work.

Amiland: tough choice. I too like the Chaffee, it's a cheap tank for all-around work. The Hellcat's slightly more expensive, better at anti-armor but inferior at anti-inf. The T-8 is a real steal, unbelievably cheap. Limited ammo, still, at it's cost my vote goes for the T-8.

Britonia: I too find the Churchills VII and VIII to be quite useful, obviously more due to their ability to withstand hits than to their questionable ability to punish other tanks. I like the White scout car, it should be a good buy with the lots of ammo it has for the 50cal, yet so far I have always had bad luck with them. Welml, so I guess my vote is for the Churchill VII/VIII.

[Colin]

German: Hetzer. For all the other reason's mentioned.

American: T-8's are nice but have a MAJOR ammor restriction. The Sherman 75mm Jumbo is a pretty good bang for buck deal (especialy if it has tungsten rounds).

British: Churchill AVRE is a nice vehicle. I also like the Churchill VIII because of the armor.

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

[Aussie Smith]

Hmmm - Interstesting arguments. I've always found the Churchill far far to slow and the Jumbo far far to expensive notwithstanding that they are good tanks but I still don't believe best bang for the buck.

After Pacesticks hammering me in 2 PBEM games at the moment with Infantry against my Stugs in one and Puma's vs Greyhounds in another (that still hurts Pete ) I'm inclined to agree that a bang for buck vehicle needs good anti-inf stuff as well - so I'll review my German choice and go with the 234/2 instead as its speed - decent gun and anti-inf weapons make it good value - if only it could stand up to .50cal's.

Craig

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Heh hunter...meybe so, but they don't count!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1,2,3,6,5,3...err...1,2,3,7,4,2...err...1,2,3,9....oh, forget it!!!

Crikey, you're right.

Mace (proudly Australian)

[Wayne]

I think it depends on the terrain, the mission and how many points you have to purchase Armor. I can't give you one AFV that's best in all circumstances. I will say that I have greater appreciation for the much derided Sherman. It has good fire power, fair armor, plenty of machineguns and is good at manuvering. If you watch what you're doing it can be very effective.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:

T-8's are nice but have a MAJOR ammo restriction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try the M20 AC. Less armor than the T8 (vulnerable to the 20mm Flak), but more ammo and more speed than the T8. If you're feeling lucky, the fast but lightly armored M3A1 Scout is great w/ 2 MGs and loads of ammo.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>British: Churchill AVRE is a nice vehicle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Decent armor, but range is a bit short for some engagements.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also like the Churchill VIII because of the armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely. And the HE.

The JPzIV/70V is my current fave among German tanks. With the awfully slow turrets on various Axis tanks, I think the turretless vehicles may actually have an *advantage* over their turreted counterparts. Great for hull-down reverse-slope defenses.

And so long as you can keep it away from Allied tank guns, the Ostwind is tons of fun. A bit expensive for a roving Flak gun, though.

The 234/3 Heavy car is a nice pick too. Just beware of the .50cal!

As was mentioned, the Hellcat can be taken out (from the side) by as little as a 20mm Flak. It's 76mm gun is nice, but you will get some ricochets off the frontal armor of Panthers. Also takes atleast one ricochet off enemy armor from AP before the deadly Tungsten rounds are used. Which sometimes can be too late.

I'm rather partial to the Jackson myself. Nice gun, decent speed, passable armor.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-08-2000).]

[Mark IV]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the StuH. A very good bargain, especially when you can't make change for a "full" tank.

[Guest Chris B]

Go'Day. Is that the right pronounciation?

>There are some people here that aren't Australian?!

Yepp, and my name aint Bruce. (That's gonna cause some confusion)

Challenger

I am pretty partial to the Challenger, good speed, good gun, tungsten ammo that blows big holes in anything the Jerries have. Underarmored so it is not a good tank to lead with.

Also like the Churchill VII and Daimler for reasons stater above.

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

I like Pumas, but have learned not to want them in CM. They are too easily killed by MG fire.

Firelflies are pretty good bargain. I also like the Churchill VIII (95mm Howitzer). It can kill pretty much any allied Ueber Panzer with a HEAT round and it has the armor like a Jumbo (almost) but costs around 60 points less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I killed a Puma once with a 2 inch mortar. Shells right into the turret. Pop!

I agree with the Churchills, lately I've been playing Canadians and I find it has great frontal armour to boot.

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

... and secondly, the tanks cant simply by themselves pose a threat to soldiers by rolling over them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that brings up a good point.

Whatever happened to overruns like we used to have in ASL?

[dumbo]

Dont forget the Churchill fast turret rotation! I have found this useful on many occasions, particularly on defense.

[Bastables]

I think you'll find that all German anti armour Veh were to have a 50/50 mix of Sprgr/HE and Pzgr/AP as SOP.

[von Lucke]

For the Allies, it has to be the M36B1 Jackson. It's the cheapest of the heavy hitters, has a 90mm gun + 2 MGs (1x .50cal), and a fast turret. Minuses are the open top, only average armor, and usually low on HE.

For the Germans, it's a toss-up between the Hetzer: cheap, decent gun, good armor (from the front), remote-control MG, but slow ROF, low ammo, and no turret. Or the Mk IV H: Same gun as the Hetzer + 2 MGs, medium turret speed (best of the German tanks), good ammo load-out, average armor, cheapest of the "real" German tanks. Personally, I prefer the flexability of a turret, but YMMV.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

Yes, that brings up a good point.

Whatever happened to overruns like we used to have in ASL?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They went out of style around 1943 when the infantry started getting effective standoff AT weapons. Made it dangerous to get too close to the grunts. I never got ASL, but old SL reflected that too.

Michael