Is the Tiger a dog?

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamo:

Wasn't the Achilles the British version of the m-10?

Zamo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, indeed. The 17 pounder has a shorter distance from the trunnion to the breach than the American 76mm gun, which made for a roomier, more efficient fighting compartment on a vehicle with a lot more punch.

[Guest grunto]

yeah you don't want to duke it out at 200 meters against those 17pdr guns. you might want to hide and try to get 1:1 isolation on their vehicles and pop them one at a time. this will probably involve jumping from position to position and trying to trick the opponent as to your current location after you make each individual kill as you're moving to the next firing position.

also carry a couple of pzk squads on top and drop them off nearby when you move into place for a short-range ambush. if you have two afvs bring an mg42 and a platoon hq as well.

andy

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Hi

in the list of vechicles

which of these is the Tiger 2 you were refering to:

Pz VA Panther (with skirt armor)

Pz VG Panther

Pz VG Panther (with chin mantlet extension)

Pz VIE Tiger

Pz VIE Tiger (late, thicker armor)

Pz VIB King Tiger (Porche Turret)

Pz VIB King Tiger

-tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, Tiger 2's are also known as King Tigers.

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"I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus

[Guest Big Time Software]

GhostOne - the 17pdr is pretty much a Western Front Tiger I commander's least favorite sight to behold on the battlefield, because it can destroy the Tiger I at short to medium range with little trouble.

But keep in mind that most British and American tanks are armed with guns less powerful than the 17pdr. You should have a much easier time against those vehicles with your Tiger I. Still, never get overconfident!

Charles

[Herr Oberst]

Great picture V B.

I think that driver needs to go back to school and read up on sloped armor. He clearly misunderstood the intent.

[Danno]

I think it's all in how you use the tiger. Set up ambushes, hull down, defensive posistions. It's so slow that the less you have to move it or it's turret the better. Also remember to use your support tanks if they are available to protect the tiger.

On the offense the tiger is hard to use and again I'd want to have plenty of support before I moved it out into the open. Didn't Whittman(sp?) use Assault gun tactics? ie, turning the entire vehicle instead of the slow turret? You have to make use of that thick frontal armor against lower power guns and sometimes you are just out classed by speed.

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"It's a hardball world son. We've got to keep our heads until this peace craze blows over."

[THumpre]

I gotta say it, no the Tiger is not a dog. It is a cat.

(wanders off cackling insanely to self....)

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[tss]

MantaRay wrote:

But I will take an Army of Tiger 2's over anything. They were the Kings that would never be crowned.

Well, then you have to hope that you are not ordered to attack with your army. It could be said that the best defence against King Tigers would be to first withdraw 30 km and then counterattack and destroy the King Tigers one by one when they lie broken down blocking the roads. Sure, King Tiger was a very good in tank-to-tank combat, but the difficulty was to get it to battlefield in working condition.

- Tommi

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I agree with the others that the Tiger 1 had had its day by 44. In my view it was at its peak in 43 up against T34/76s.By 44 the Soviet 85s and western 76s of vatious types could knock it out without too much trouble.

Note the Tiger1 could still kill Shermans and T34s without any difficulty.

All the best,

Kip.

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[Joe Shaw]

Apparently not, I mean the guy won the tourney by 15 shots for Pete's sake, I don't see how you can call that a dog, he broke ... Opps! Wrong board ... sorry.

Joe

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...if memory serves tigers have elite crews. someone can jump in and correct me but i believe the tigers were in ss divisions and elite panzer units, but the regular panzer divisions and infantry division armored support were pzIVs, panthers, and more commonly in the infantry divisions, stuGs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy...I will be one major grumbler if all the SS troops (even just armor) in CM are rated as "Elite".

Just because the nazi propaganda machine rated all SS formations as "elite" does not mean that they were elite, especially by late 1944-45 (the main focus of CM:BO).

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

Boy...I will be one major grumbler if all the SS troops (even just armor) in CM are rated as "Elite".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of my favorite units in Squad Leader (I think it came in the COI box) was a 6+1 SS leader. I can't remember the name.

My other favorite was Lt. Stahler, a 9-2 who seemed to be in every scenario, and when you were rolling for his fire you had a much better chance of snake eyes.

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chrisl wrote:

My other favorite was Lt. Stahler, a 9-2 who seemed to be in every scenario, and when you were rolling for his fire you had a much better chance of snake eyes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, you too? Man, I had so much luck with the Stahler leader it was uncanny, almost like it was 'fixed', or so my friends said anyway

Ron

[DrD]

Here's a question for you grognards. I never understood why the Tiger was the Panzer VI and the Panther the V when the Tiger actually came first in production and in most ways was considered inferior to the Panther. Anyone know?

[waffen]

another trick used by the tiger is to always face the enemy at 11 o clock or 1 o clock never straight on .this increases your chance of shells slideing off

[Murx]

DrD, I bet it's a kind of research delay, thus the science team on the Tiger was faster then that of the Panther

But don't know.

Real problem on the Tigers (as someone stated 'getting them in combat condition to the battlegrounds') was that their tracks were 81cm braod (exact?) thus they had to be removed and the track skirts (right word again?) too when moved per rail. That made a mobile war nearly impossible. So they are defense tanks only.

Heard a nice Western Front story once. A US tank Bat. found a single King Tiger guarding a pass loosing one Sherman at a good distance. They didn't liked the idea and waited. After a day another Armor Bat. + a infantry Bat. arrived. The grunts were sent out just to find that the King Tiger was abandonded in the meantime

murx

(Even if that wasn't that heroic I like it that way cause it saved some lives on both sides)

[aka kingtiger]

Yikes, jab a knife in my heart.

Tigers are dogs? My Tiger doesn't work well in CM. Flipped over drunken Tiger drivers? Panther better than Tigers?

Stop it. I can't take it.

Richard Kalajian

[Mattias]

DrD,

Probably has something to do with the fact that during the development of the Tiger there was in fact already a vehicle using the "V" designation, the Pz.Kpfw NbFz V.

When did the PzKw V first see action has appeared as a as a trick question now and then. The answer here supposedly being, in the invasion of Norway.

Silly as it might be it could be the cause of the confusion. Then again, the model "b" of the NbFz was at some point called "VI", so I guess there could be more to this.

Anyway, as the NbFz's never were adopted for production the designation was moved over to the Panther and Tiger. The "VI" designation becoming free first in my line of thinking.

Alternatively it could be that the Tiger is a heavier tank than the old "V" and was slotted in above it as long as the NpFz remained in the mind of military planners.

Then again, this could all be the Macallan kicking in. Best drop it here...

M.

[Kevin Peltz]

Weren't most Tigers organized into heavy battalions and used as Korps or higher assets, as opposed to being designated to a particular Division? I know there were exceptions, such as 1st LSSAH and Das Reich, but generally...?

[jgdpzr]

The German nomenclature was broken down according to weight- the higher the number the heavier the vehicle. IIRC, when the Tiger was brought into production, it was designed from the onset to be a heavy. At the same time, the Germans already had plans to field a replacement for the IV and the specifications called for a lighter vehicle than the Tiger, hence they earmarked the designation 'V' for this vehicle. That's how I always understood it, but cannot confirm it with any certainty. Seems like I have also heard that the Germans didn't usually refer to the Tiger or Panther by their letter designation but simply by name.

[GhostOne]

Thanks for all the info. As stated the map resulted in an engagement range of 300-400 meters due to the terrain. The scenario is as follows: I have an SS armor unit (all veterans..not elite) with a Tiger1, PzIV/70, PzIVJ, two Hetzers, one HMG, two shreck teams, and two infantry platoons defending a road jucture in farmland with slightly hilly terrain. I spent 1000 points and the Brits have 1000 points plus another 100% advantage.

The Brit armored force consists of 12 tanks (Cromwells, Achilles, Shermans) and about 5 Daimlers plus more Infantry than I've ever seen in any pics of the game. There aren't any good hiding places and I'm somewhat down in a slight valley so when the Brit tanks show up at the ridge they are in force and it's plinking time. The Hetzers and PZIV/70 give a great account of themselves before being taken out but the Tiger is usually the first to go and it rarely connects on a shot.

I've placed several of the tanks on the sides of a couple of small buildings that are present to protect a flank and they have good overlapping fields of fire. The brits are coming in on the elevated side so it is easier for them to take up hull down positions. It's just a problem specific to the German position on this particular map but I had expected more out of the Tiger.

It really isn't possible to present a 45 degree front to the attackers as there are too many of them but it's good to know that straight on is not the Tigers best profile.

Upon first play I got smoked by the AI as I didn't know what I was up against and was overwhelmed by firepower and sheer numbers.

As one of the beta testers said, this will be a common and humbling experience for many of us when we start playing the scenarios and Ops for the first time.

Since then the best I've managed is a minor Axis victory with one surviving Inf. platoon intact with my troops accounting for 11 tank kills, two Daimler kills and 144 Brit troops lost. Obviously there's a world of difference between no intel and knowing exactly what you're going up against.

What a great game CM is and if you don't like the scenario you can whip up another in about 30 seconds with the Quick Battle Generator which is mostly what I've been using.

Ghost

[patboivin]

I like the Tiger Ausf B because of its 88LL gun, even in ASL the Tiger Ausf E didn't perform all that well IMHO.

I agree that the Ausf B is defensive, it bogs down too much and it was just too slow. On the other hand just knowing that a King Tiger is coming was enough sometimes to get my opponent to clear out, with few shots fired.

Mind you much of the time the Germans in 1944-45 needed just that, AFVs that could slow down an enemy's advance. Good for the Allies that they had plenty of air support.

Once I played a scenario where I put a JagdTiger behind a stone wall that was shaped like a V, at a road intersection. That was entertaining, I never knew my friends could swear that much.

I would agree that the JagdPanther was better defensively, though. 75LL wasn't a bad gun either, plus the JPzV didn't bog down so much and could move relatively fast.

Is there a SturmTiger VI in CM? I always need one of those, I use it as a flare gun...

[Guest Big Time Software]

Actually the JgdPz V (JagdPanther) has the same 88mm L/71 gun as the Tiger II (King Tiger).

Sorry no SturmTiger in CM...

Charles

[Dar]

If you look at the excerpts from the <a href ="http://tiger1e.com/fibel/index.html"><u>Tiger Fibel</u></a>, specifically the <a href = URL=http://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/ShermanChart.jpg>Tiger vs. Sherman chart<a/>, you'll see that the Tiger was nearly impervious to Shermans from the front (I assume the 8/8/43 at the top is the date). However, the Tiger could reach out and pick off the Sherman frontally from 750m. Given that CM's scale takes place in mid-'44 and later, the Tiger is not as dominant anymore as the Western Allies fielded better tanks. However, it was still very dangerous and had justifiably earned its reputation as a tank killer.

Dar

[This message has been edited by Dar (edited 06-19-2000).]

[kump]

Isn't the issue here is to whether CM's gun calculations are simulating the toughness of the Tiger I's armor realistically? Even 44-45, the Tiger I was a challenge, though the better late war Allied guns found it easier to handle.

Still, is the box shape (no angle) of the Tiger I, as being calculated by CM gun algorithms, making it a little too easy to take it out by hits to the its front armor?

So far, I've been very impressed with CM results. I don't want to read too much into someone's complaint of the survivability of the Tiger I, but I would like to keep hearing testimonials on the CM accuracy of its gun calculations.

The Tiger I was no dog in the late war years, though not the almighty king it was in 42-43. It continued to be a substantial threat throughout the war.

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Garry Kump