Screamin Demon Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Why didnt they use gases and stuff in WWII like they did in WWI? Demon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V B Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I believe that would take the fun out of the tactical aspect of the game. Just slightly As I remember the Axis and Allies used very little gas in the war(Im sure some was used here and there, especially in the Russian front). The world still remembers the horror mustard gas was during WW1 and many countries established a doctrine banning the tactical use of gas in combat. (anyone have information on this, which contries was it? I am too lazy to look this up). I do know that the development of tactical gas accelerated after the 2nd WW, during the Cold War. Otherwise the CM battlefields are too small to support gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Just an attempt: Most of the soldiers had gas masks, anyway. Warfare was more mobile in WW II than in WW I. Ethical reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 The germans had develloped a very efficient nerve gas, I think it was called Sarin. Why they didn't use it? First there was the Geneva Convention, that didn't allow gas to be used. Another thing was that the Germans were afraid to use it coz of retaliations of the allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I know the Allies shipped some nerve gas to Italy during the Cassino stalemate. Unfortunately the Germans bombed the harbor and sank the ship. The incident was covered up afterwards. (Many survivors and those coming to the rescue went blind as noone was informed that there was a higly toxic cargo onboard, it wasn't "officially" there.) ------------------ visit lindan.panzershark.com member of the Combat Mision webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I believe its been said that Hitlers experience in WW1 lead him to be very anti gas. A good thing, because I believe he would have would have used it, if he didn't have such an aversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Pike Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 The Germans had nerve gas but assumed that we had it as well so didn't use it. The Allies knew that the Germans had much better gas so didn't start anything. Churchill was planning to gas bomb the invasion beaches if the Germans had landed in 1940. Britain also experimented with biological warfare. The plan was to use anthrax to kill german Cattle but it was found to be too dangerous to humans as well. The Japanese did use some biological agents (not sure which) in China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamin Demon Posted June 7, 2000 Author Share Posted June 7, 2000 Thanks for the responses, now im a little more clear. Just one thing- Silencer wrote: The germans had develloped a very efficient nerve gas, I think it was called Sarin. Why they didn't use it? First there was the Geneva Convention, that didn't allow gas to be used. Another thing was that the Germans were afraid to use it coz of retaliations of the allies. Well I think Adolf Hitler tore up his Geneva convention when he committed Genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Well... i guess, there wans't that static battle that happened in WW1... as the frontline was always in movement i guess the gas would have been ineffective... (as far as i remembered it best worked in WW1 on the entrenched positions .... Just my 2 cent.. ------------------ TargetDrone who doesn't want to draw attention... especially from guys with big guns ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeathome Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 The Germans developed Sarin from an insecticide IIRC - one developed by one of hte allies, and assumed the allies had also developed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hitler DID tear up the Geneva Convention, but consider it a bit of warped chivalry (or fear) bred from his experiences of having been gassed himself (Mustard gas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Britain also experimented with biological warfare. The plan was to use anthrax to kill german Cattle but it was found to be too dangerous to humans as well. The Germans had similar plans during WWI. They sent one agent to Northern Norway who was supposed to kill all Russina reindeer herds with anthrax. The plan was cancelled when it became evindent that there wasn't any sense in the whole operation. A couple of years ago someone found few sugar cubes that were infected with anthrax from Norway, remnants of this plan. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 A couple of factoids: -- The Japanese had an extensive biological warfare research facility at Harbin in Manchuria were they did testing on live subjects(mostly Chinese civilians, but also some Allied POWs, IIRC). This was, incidentally, the subject of a recently aired History Channel documentary. -- The U.S. was not a signatory to the particular treaty that banned chemical warfare. We never used chem. weapons (apart from WP). The OSS came up with a plan to use them in the Pacific as part of a "maskirova" operation, but it never went through with the plan. The OSS also attempted to use botulinum toxin on the Japanese in Burma, but the operation failed when native resistance operatives tested the toxin on donkeys without result. Too bad they didn't know that donkeys are one of the few mammals immune to botulinum. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I believe that Albert Speer played a significant role in persuading Hitler not to use chemical weapons. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Talon: I believe its been said that Hitlers experience in WW1 lead him to be very anti gas. A good thing, because I believe he would have would have used it, if he didn't have such an aversion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, I think that's about the point. Hitler saw the end of WWI in hospital (don't know the military term) because he had swallowed some gas previously. He obviously hated this and decided using gas was so cruel that it shouldn't be used against people. Killing Jews in the KZs was the only exception to this rule (probably because they were not really considered humans by him). Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Pike Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Britain tested anthrax by letting releasing a bomb on a small island called Gruinard off Scotland. This island remained containmated and uninhabitable until it was cleaned a few years ago. Over the last 40 years there had been occasional cases of anthrax in local Scotish hospitals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: A couple of factoids: -- The Japanese had an extensive biological warfare research facility at Harbin in Manchuria were they did testing on live subjects(mostly Chinese civilians, but also some Allied POWs, IIRC). This was, incidentally, the subject of a recently aired History Channel documentary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Was called Unit 731, IIRC. AFAIK the Americans made a deal and did not prosecute the people who ran the place in exchange for the documentation on the experiments. At least one of the Japanese doctors involved was still practicing in the early to mid 1990s, IIRC. They also did life vivisections on American POWs there. Nice chaps, the Japanese army doctors. But hey, Westerners were not seen as equals, so that was alright then, obviously. The Australians did experiments with some gas on criminal prisoners in the 1950s. We were shown a movie of that during basic training in the Bundeswehr. Apparently the prisoners were 'volunteers', who were promised reduction in their sentences. Fools... They were marched through brush-land that had previously been sprayed with some gas, can't remember what it was, wearing shorts and short-sleeved army summer dress. Then the development of the wounds was documented in great detail. It was the only training film where we were allowed to leave the room if we decided we could not stand it. I made it through about 10 minutes, but I am a whimp. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshik Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hmmm... in 1941, the Germans experimented with murdering Jews by means of gas vans, most notably in Chelmno, that would funnel carbon monoxide exhaust into a locked rear chamber. Later, the Germans employed the use of Zyklon B, a pesticide derivative, to murder Jews in a more efficient manner. Does this not constitute the widespread use of chemical warfare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Joshik: Most certainly, but I think the discussion here was aimed at "military" uses of NBC WARFARE as could be applied to CM. Gassing innocent civilians is hardly a direct miliary application IMO - I'd call it murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Jenkins Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 The story of Hitler being gassed at the end of WWI is just that: a story. He actually had a case of histerical blindness. Losing the war messed him up in the head (even more than he already was). However, he was afraid of gas based on his battlefield experiences. We were going to use gas when we invaded Japan. The Chemical Corps was preparing for just that. It was going to happen, based on the need to clear the many caves on the islands. Chemical warfare against China was going to be used as a pretext for doing it. The Japanese had been intermittently using gas in that war from the start. Also, Italy used gas in Ethiopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Here is the real reason: Hitler was told that if he would use gas then all german population centers can be gasses in 24 hours by allies. There were tons of static lines of front in WWII - For example St. Petersburg was in state of siege for 900 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Since as a former military analyst I used to deal with this disgusting topic professionally and have read about it extensively privately, I feel compelled to wade into this discussion. True, the Germans did pioneer nerve agents, two in fact. They were Tabun and Sarin, both derived from insecticide related research on organophosphate compounds. Think of them as bug spray for people. They work by disrupting proper functioning of the nervous system, resulting ultimately in respiratory failure from inability to breathe. The best information I've seen indicates that the Germans nearly used them at Stalingrad and at Normandy, but didn't. I'd now like to explain why. The Russians had huge stockpiles, hundreds of thousands of tons, I believe, of war gasses (vesicants (blister agents, like mustard), blood agents (cyanide compounds), Lewisite (arsenicals) and other fun stuff. They had the equipment and real world training to use them en masse with devastating effect on the Germans, who were already fighting outnumbered in the East. No incentive there. The British, by contrast, were essentially sitting ducks to chemical attack and knew it. That was why Churchill authorized the development and testing of anthrax bombs. Had Germany hit the British with chemical munitions, the plan was to reply on major German cities with anthrax. As far as Gruinard Island goes, to my knowledge the island is completely off limits to this day. Anthrax spores have no half life. Hitler's gas issues aside, the best evidence available is that the British neatly sidestepped their own vulnerability through their effectively total control of German agent networks in Britain, under the renowned Double Cross system (see THE DOUBLE CROSS SYSTEM, by J.C. Masterman). When the German controllers queried their agents on British offensive/defensive chemical warfare preparedness, they were given a response totally calculated to make the Germans want to forget the whole subject. It worked beautifully. The Italians used chemical weapons during their invasions of Abysinnia and Ethiopia, but not during WWII that I know of. For info on this, see YELLOW RAIN, by Seagrave and A HIGHER FORM OF KILLING, by Paxman and Harsh. I don't know about any Japanese chemical weapon use in combat, but I can tell you that UNIT 731 (see book of same title by Wallace and Williams, as well as several History Channel programs) used a ghastly array of chemical and biological munitions, including a gangrene bomb, on Chinese civilians, Chinese POWs and Allied POWs during tests and killed tens of thousands of Chinese through large scale biological warfare of the most horrific sort, including deliberately infecting wells. The U.S. was reasonably prepared for chemical warfare and was positioned to respond quickly had the Germans used war gasses. Unfortunately, that led to the disaster at Bari, Libya (?) in which a Liberty ship loaded with mustard gas munitions was hit during a German air raid and sank, filling much of the harbor with mustard, which was not noticed among all the fuel oil floating and which caused terrible casualties to the sailors swimming in it. To cover up the presence of war gas in the theater, the incident was classified Top Secret and buried for decades. I hope this straightens out a few things for all concerned. Sincerely, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Jenkins: The story of Hitler being gassed at the end of WWI is just that: a story. He actually had a case of histerical blindness. Losing the war messed him up in the head (even more than he already was). However, he was afraid of gas based on his battlefield experiences. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is news to me. For instance, I recently read Keegan's mini-biography of Hitler in "Masks of Command", and he credits the generally accepted account of Hitler actually being gassed while acting as a "runner". Do you have a contradictory source? Thanks in advance. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Two words: Airborne Delivery. Are you really going to use gas on someone who can turn around and drop it on your cities? ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: ...used a ghastly array of chemical and biological munitions, including a gangrene bomb... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> John, Gangrene bomb? While I am far from an expert on chemical and biological weapons, I do have a little bit of knowledge about them. However, this is the first mention of a gangrene bomb that I've heard. Would you please describe what exactly a gangrene bomb is? Thanks, -Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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