Big RANT (long)..but serious

[AH64D]

Oke, first i would like to say the game looks really promissing. Yet i have played the demo some times and have seen many things that need improvement.

Before i start whining , i would like to let you people know i have read MOST posts made on this board. Yes, i have been here since 6 or 7 months ago already, so please bear in mind i'm not some newbie who's too lazy to read previous posts.

Things that MUST be changed.

1)Animations. No, i'm not talking about the running ones. Yes i know they have created those. I'm talking about the speed of the animations. When i give my men an order, like "defend", I expect them to get up, and attack (when their morale is ok and a leader nearby). However, when i tell them to, they get up real slow (all men look like they are moving under water) giving the advancing enemy more time to gain ground.

This is just plain stupid. If i am attacked my men might get scared and keep their heads in the sand or they might try and run away. I have NEVER seen however that they start moving at 1% at normal humanspeed. Something like "Ok men, we're surrounded. There are 3 things we can do: cower !!! run !!! or start moving 10 times as slow as normal". See what i mean? It's silly. I have tried this with a full squad, 2 leaders near AND they were all at full health. They haven't been in battle yet (so no shellshock ).

Not only this animation is dumb. What about the "drop to the ground"-animation. Christ, my men seem to fall down slower then a leave from a tree. Down is down. If i was shot at i would be down in less then .5 secs. Not 3 or 4 secs. STUPID i tell ya.

2)Fire. BTS says creating good looking fire/smoke is too heavy for cpu's nowadays. Not true. Ever heard of d3d? You should...since CM runs with it. Anyway, d3d can produce "transparent smoke/fire" which require LESS horsepower then 4 ugly gifs. Just look at a game like Asherons Call or Quake 3. They have beautiful fire (sometimes over 40 on screen once). And does anyone experience slowdown? Nope. Sure CM uses much cpu-power because of their "3d-shooting-stuff", but as i said before THOSE UGLY GIFS TAKE MORE MEMORY !!! Why am i obsessed with fire/smoke? Because most of the game looks absolutely great (well the tanks do). When is showed it to a friend he told me it looked real good, but when he saw the fire he started laughing, saying Duke Nukem 3d has better fire. Ofcourse i checked, and my god, he was right too. Although Duke uses gifs too, they look MUCH better. I understand it's easy for BTS to just ignore posts about ugly graphics. Using their "3d-world" as an excuse, saying it requires to much power. Well, that's a real shame. I checked with many 3d-artists (not small ones either...but from really big companies) and they all told me that the d3d-smoke/fire is less burden to carry for cpu's if they are running it on a normal pc with a voodoo2 or better. Well then BTS might respond with "Yes, that's it...it's not the 3d-world...it's the voodoo chip. We want the game to be playable by EVERYONE".

Well, if so, keep in account that 99% nowadays have voodoo2/3/4 tnt/tnt2 and so on. In other words people owning a voodoo1 are people not willing to spent cash on a thing enhacing their gaming-experieece or simply not having the money. Probably meaning they don't buy this game either. Should the rest get screwed because of this?

3)I hate the shooting/set up-part of the mg's. Sitting behind a mg42 ? I know BTS did this because a soldier laying down is supposed to be one surpressed or wounded, but COME ON, is this the only solution BTS can come up with? Why didn't they make these cowards lay on their back instead of belly? Sure it would look dumb. Then again, a scared person can lay on his back, while a soldier can't fire/aim right when SITTING behind his weapon. So BTS, try to think before you create. You wanted to make a "realistic" wargame, yet you put soldiers in positions that make no sense at all.

4)Buildings. 1 word: UGLY. I know one can not expect very detailed houses because, once again, the horesepower of todays pc's. Yet i think the textures could be much MUCH better. I stood next to a building with my men (no scaling). I noticed a windowd being 4 times as big as me...in a normal house? Wow talking about realism. I like to see NICE textures. Not just 1 with the occassional window. I don't care if you go outside, take pictures of the first/2nd house you see, and import them.

5)Sounds. Weapons sound nice.But my men suck. The only thing they do is the occassional scream for the sergeant or things like that. I need SCREAMS. If i rip a squad appart with a mg42 the soldiers shouldn't just pop-away. No, they SHOULD SCREAM, i bloody killed them !!!!

The game looks like a wargame but DOES NOT sound like one, meaning t doesn't play like one, meaning.....why bother?

You people probably want to kill me for these remarks. Yet i think it had to be said. Why? Because this COULD be the best playable AND looking game of all time. Yet if they do not solve many small and some big problems, the game will end up like UO9:

"Nice game, if you can live with many problems that should have been solved before shipment".

This might mean another 3 months waiting. I don't care. There are games i'm waiting for since 1995, yet they have not arrived yet.

Please give me normal answers. Don't tell me i should play Quake or something. This is a serious post asking for serious replies.

AH64D

"When in doubt...smack it about"

[Thomm]

ad (3):

I tried to fire my heavy MG 42 lying flat on the living room carpet, but the tripod kept tipping over. I found that it is indeed better to fire it from the hip ! Especially in Winter, as it keeps you warm and shakes the ice off !

[Dschugaschwili]

As long as the game mechanics work in a realistic manner and I can identify what's on the screen, I don't care about graphics at all.

I really don't think your suggestions have enough weight to justify delaying the game.

Dschugaschwili

[s bakker]

I think AH64D highlighted all those aspects of CM which if 'polished up' would greatly improve the acceptance of the more casual wargame players.

Grognards would most likely buy CM even if it was in EGA, just for it's realism.

(Dschugaschwili?)

But wouldn't it be nice if casual gamers could be sucked into wargaming because they played this goodlooking, 3d wargame called CM of which they later learned to appreciate it's enormous depths ?

In that, i think AH64D has a point.

It's just op to BTS if they are willing to take the time and effort to 'polish things up'.

I for one would aprreciate it if they should.

grtz s bakker

[Lindan]

It's a beta. I think that MANY things have changed, as you can see in the screenshots at CMHQ. It's probably no use to discuss (again and again) these things before the gold demo arrives. Beta is Beta (and an old one too). I just wait for the gold demo and then take a closer look at it.

I have to admit that I don't care too much about graphic-finetuning if the gameplay is right. There will be a CM 2 after all...

[AH64D]

* As long as the game mechanics work in a realistic manner *

Using 5 seconds to drop to the floor is realistic?

One of the reasons i posted is because MANY people asked about the graphics...not just me. BTS gave some replies...horspower...which appear not to make sense at all.

Also graphics ARE important. Why do you think many sites have POTD? Why do people buy 3d-cards...why are people raving about how much better Quake 3 is better then 2...and so on. Graphics ARE important. Now you be serious and tell me the fire in CM is the most beautifull you have ever seen. You probably won't because they don't

AH64D

"When in doubt....you know"

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>keep in account that 99% nowadays have voodoo2/3/4 tnt/tnt2 and so on. In other words people owning a voodoo1 are people not willing to spent cash on a thing enhacing their gaming-experieece or simply not having the money. Probably meaning they don't buy this game either. Should the rest get screwed because of this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

99%? Try again. Care to take a stab at what percentage of Mac users are on this board? Do you think Steve and Charles (Mac users) are going to make the game PC only?

[AH64D]

Nope, they won't. But tell me, you really think you're pushing your mac right now? Don't think so. I know this game uses lotsa power but saying this is the best we can expect nowadays is untrue. Also, the fire/smoke-thing IS d3d. This means voodoo1 too. But it might run better when one has a better card.

I know graphics aren't the most important part of a game. But when one tries to create a game as realistic as possible i can't see why the graphics should stay behind. Sure the trees are 2d. Sure it's impossible to create full 3d-trees. But fire and smoke? Come on. When i finish a battle and see the carnage i made i like to enjoy huge flames and smoke. I don't want to watch smoke and fire looking as a bad 1994 1st-person shooter.

The things i said are NO reason for me NOT to buy the game. I just would be nice to see them included that's all.

Btw. i see no replies to the other problems i have with CM. Can i pressume those are things people agree with?

AH64D

[Dschugaschwili]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AH64D:

Using 5 seconds to drop to the floor is realistic?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I doubt that the underlying game mechanics use the same time as the animations. Maybe some animations could be faster, but you should also remember that it's not just one guy diving for cover or rotating to face the enemy, but up to 12 of them. It will take more than 0.5 seconds to get them all into cover.

By the way, what's the definition of "grognard"?

Dschugaschwili

[Darwin]

in regards to your various statements,

1) Maybe I'm not understanding the situation you describe but I havent had a problem there. generally there is a reason for their lag in responding to your command. you're aware of the command structure in the game right?

2) Not a problem, can allways be better though. Dont pretend to know so much that I discount BTS's methods of design, they seem to be doing an excellent job to me.

3) HMG's are tripod mounted weapons, don't see a problem here.

4) Can allways be improved but are functional now, not a problem for me.

5) Disagree in that I dont think it needs excessive screaming at all. I do agree in that I think the beta sound needed work with the exception that I am more interested in CM as a wargame than as a visceral feast.

[AH64D]

*1) Maybe I'm not understanding the situation you describe but I havent had a problem there. generally there is a reason for their lag in responding to your command. you're aware of the command structure in the game right?*

I do understand the structure. As i posted multiple times i always had the correct HQ nearby, making sure the order would be received fast enough. But i'm not talking the speed the units respond to, but the speed in which they PERFROM these. In other words. Kneeling takes in real life...what?...2 secs? In CM the kneel-animation takes 4 secs. When the units are shot at they drop down. In real this would take...what?...1 sec? In CM the animation takes 3 secs. As i said before, it looks like the characters are moving as they were UNDER WATER....too slow. It can't be my cpu or videocard...believe me.

*2) Not a problem, can allways be better though. Dont pretend to know so much that I discount BTS's methods of design, they seem to be doing an excellent job to me*

Sure BTS knows how to program, they have done a great job so far. BUT i just noticed their answers about the fire/smoke and how much cpu-power this would take. Since i have some experience with programming using d3d, i called some friends and other programmers (of very respectable videogame-companies) and asked if was thinking the right thing. They all said i was. So it's not MY only opinion.

*3) HMG's are tripod mounted weapons, don't see a problem here.*

Try to find me a picture with a character using a mg (with tripod) firing it WHEN sitting down. Also since it HAS a tripod i DO see a problem. What are they used for? To be put on the ground maybe? Thought so. Now..how the hell would you aim when your eyes are 80cm to 1m higher then the gun itself? Seeing a unit SITTING behind a mg is strange to say the least and could have been easily solved when thinking about it.

*4) Can allways be improved but are functional now, not a problem for me.*

Yip functional. But once again, creating cool textures is very easy (take a photo and import). This would make the game more believible...which can only be nice.

*5) Disagree in that I dont think it needs excessive screaming at all. I do agree in that I think the beta sound needed work with the exception that I am more interested in CM as a wargame than as a visceral feast.*

I wasn't talking about EXCESSIVE screaming...just some sounds. Seeing units "plop" away is a bit strange. CM doesn't have to be the best looking wargame ever created. But why put much time in modelling all the units and then letting the buildings/sounds/fire etc. suck bigtime?

AH64D

[AH64D]

Dschugaschwili,

I agree with the time to let ALL people get up. But let's be honest, when i tell my men the enemy i heading towards us (6 meters away) and we NEED to get offensive. I expect them to get up in less then 5 secs. This is possible when you are close to your men. Hell, i can put my cigs away, reload a weapon and get up in 5 secs.

As i said i tried it with 2 hq's very close. Meaning radiocontact would have been NO prob.

I know what a Grognard is. Since i didn't use the ord however and "s bakker" did, it would be better if he explained it to ya. (although i see no reason since i might assume you know what it is).

AH64D

[Grisu]

*3) HMG's are tripod mounted weapons, don't see a problem here.*

Try to find me a picture with a character using a mg (with tripod) firing it WHEN sitting down. Also since it HAS a tripod i DO see a problem. What are they used for? To be put on the ground maybe? Thought so. Now..how the hell would you aim when your eyes are 80cm to 1m higher then the gun itself? Seeing a unit SITTING behind a mg is strange to say the least and could have been easily solved when thinking about it.

German "Bundeswehr" is using same tripod as in second world war , even the MG is nearly the same as MG42 , the MG 1 is only speed down in fire rating . It is not possible to fire the HMG Version if not kneeling or sitting . The optic and the shaft has a heigth of aprox. 70 cm from the ground . On most photos of this weapon you will find this too .

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[Guest MantaRay]

AH64D

I do agree with the jist of your posts bro, and I guess as I am one of the few out here that will soon to have a cutting edge computer. Wargamers, in general, do not have such machines. It has been a common remark every since i got into wargames, that the wargamer on average, doesnt care about graphics. That is a very sad sentiment IMO, because it is like saying here is a M1 Abrams for you to use, but only with reverse gears.

I do have to say this about 3D modeling though. As I am no programmer, and I do not know the abilities of Steve or Charles, but it seems to me that it would be possible to make a "better looking game," but that would kill their market in a big way. Also, it takes a lot of time to do 3D, and they may not have enough people to do it on a full time basis, nor would Steve and Charles most likely have the same kinds of talent to do a SWAT 3 looking game as someone who does this as his bread and butter. Not to cut them down, but that isnt where their real expertise lies anyway. Their expertise lies in the way the game models combat, and I have not seen a game that does it better yet.

Ofcourse most of the people whould like this game to look better, or they would still be playing TOPs or PItTS, and wouldnt have such a need to play this game.

I just hope that they do well with the sales to this game, and maybe if it does well enough, they can put the graphics more up to the younger guys standards.

Ray

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www.panzerelite.iwarp.com

[Grisu]

*Also since it HAS a tripod i DO see a problem. What are they used for? To be put on the ground maybe? Thought so. *

My expirience .When fired from a bipot you will see your bullets will go out of the target after 2-3 shoots . When fired from a tripod the weapon is much more fixed and you are able to hold the target even over a long distance in your optic . Also the Repulsion is much more less on a tripod .

[Mattias]

AH64D

If indeed you have been following the board as closely and for as long as you say I must say I find it odd that you have so completely missed how to post and how not to post. No matter how well founded your arguments might seem to you they come out as inflammatory ravings.

All you are accomplishing by this is to insult BTS and make yourself look like a troublemaker.

M.

[AH64D]

As for the mg's. If i remember correctly, BTS self said the sit-position is NOT realistsic but a way to show the player if a unit is supressed OR ready to fire. So no need to argue here. I stand with my point, the position could have been better.

As far as insulting you people or BTS goes...i'm very sorry if i did. I'm not from an english speaking country, so my choice of words might not always be the best. All i'm trying to say is that there are some points that could use some fixing.

If BTS doesn't decide to do this, will that make the game suck? NO!! If they are going to add this, would the game be much better? NO, just a little. It's just that when BTS manages to create such a cool game with great models, it would be a shame if they somewhat let down on some other departments.

To end this post. Yes i love CM, yes i preordered 5 months ago, yes i will play it alot.

No offense.

AH64D

[CoolColJ]

AH64D

It is a beta after all

some things, I heard the textures sizes were increase in the final version - so they will be less blurry

I'm working on Tweaked Textures v2.0 for the beta - (most Textures should be usable in the final) - that will beavaible shortly

If you want kick arse sounds and screams galore - I suggest you head down to my webpage and download my sound mod!!

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my music while your there!

[Moon]

AH64D -

a few comments if you allow.

You seem to imply that the graphics hamper the realism, here's a quote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You wanted to make a "realistic" wargame, yet you put soldiers in positions that make no sense at all<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing you need to understand is that the visual feedback has little to do with the underlying engine. The realism part of CM as a combat simulation comes from the engine "under the hood" - the graphics are only a means to visually have the player participate in the game. CM's HMG gunner could be standing or jumping up and down on one leg, it wouldn't change a thing about the number-crunching part, i.e. to-hit calculations, damage, accuracy.

Secondly, you say that you have experience with D3D programming and have many friends that are programmers. Cool - you know probably much more about it than I do. But on the other hand BTS has more than (IIRC) 12 years of gamemaking experience, and - even more importantly - they are the ones actually CODING the game, not just sitting around and thinking what might be possible and what might not. I for my part trust the experience of BTS to judge best what is possible and what is not for current hardware systems and I don't give squat about what you think.

Personally, I can also very well follow what they're saying. Which other game offers you a battlefield of 8 square kilometers without artificially blinding out anything beyond 100 meters? Imagine a few hundred units, a few dozen fires, countless tracers etc. etc. - I can see very well where this hits hardware limitations without having experience in programming.

Lastly... many of your points are moot. A lot has changed between the beta demo and the current version, including soldiers animations (not only for running), houses and many other textures (bridges, hedges, ground, sky etc.) and sound. No, CM is not "SWAT-3" looking. According to BTS it will take a few more years at least before it even can. Seeing that I have three excellent games from BTS on my harddrive here and none from you, I'll take their word over your thoughts anytime.

Martin

PS. You said - "So BTS, try to think before you create." What an unbelievable insult...

[Guest hunt52]

Also - on the d3d note - guess which platform *dosen't* support it! Now guess which platform CM does support! It's all well and good to want specific changes to support one 3d set, but there are others out there.

- Bill

[Pixman]

Well put Moon.

AH64D, if you have indeed been lurking for 6 to 7 months and truly want to provide constructive input to the game, you have possibly the worst sense of timing in history. BTS has made it clear that the game is basically "done". They are just working on other peripherals and loose ends before bringing it to market. If you had trouble with the graphics and sound, you should have chimed in when the beta demo came out, not now. Your timing makes me question whether you really did give the beta a good look when it came out. Something just does not seem to add up in your timing and approach.

Pixman

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Fact is the enemy of truth. - Don Quixote

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Nope, they won't. But tell me, you really think you're pushing your mac right now? Don't think so. I know this game uses lotsa power but saying this is the best we can expect nowadays is untrue. Also, the fire/smoke-thing IS d3d. This means voodoo1 too. But it might run better when one has a better card.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does it push my system... no, but then again, I have a fairly top of the line machine. Does it push the system of any of the Mac users I play against? yes it does. What makes you think voodoo 1 makes a difference? Voodoo card can be used on a Mac with beta drivers only. until they are tested, I would not recommend voodoo on Mac. Most Mac users I know use thier machines for things that are not game related. We need video cards to drive apps like Photoshop and Quark... voodoo ain't it.

[AH64D]

*PS. You said - "So BTS, try to think before you create." What an unbelievable insult...*

Your point? I should say sorry again?

C'mon you people, CM is a great game and ofcourse BTS know how to program. This doesn't mean CM is PERFECT or not without it's faults or downfalls. Try to be less PRO-CM. Try to be more open for suggestions. (perfect example would be CC-serie. Yes it might not be historically accurate, yes some weapons might not work in rl as they do in CC. But was it a great game? Yes sure is. Try playing on the zone, instead of hammering it down because of CM).

Sure BTS knows how to program. But the "people" i talked about are NO 12-year olds. No they work for companies which most of you will know (also older then 12 years). The reason why i give no names is simply because they didn't ask me to and i don't want to create a BTS vs the rest war.

*Also - on the d3d note - guess which platform *dosen't* support it! Now guess which platform CM does support! It's all well and good to want specific changes to support one 3d set, but there are others out there*

FYI d3d is the most/best supported 3d-accelaration availible (crectdraw is no real accel.) if the Mac doesn't support this complain to the people creating those.

Absolutely positive the Playstation doesn't support d3d neither. I don't want to start a mac-vs-pc war but let's be honest, as far as power goes a mac is more powerful, yet when it comes to games/support, the pc kicks mac-butt Bigtime. Why is it that mac-users always complain about their computer not playing certain games? Why should pc-owners get less beautiful games because some people might own a mac? C'mon, i can't play "Soul Edge"on my pc. Do i complain? No because if i want to i would have bought a Dreamcast.

Just sell the mac..buy a pc...enjoy 3d...make this world a better place

AH64D

[Pixman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sure BTS knows how to program. But the "people" i talked about are NO 12-year olds. No they work for companies which most of you will know (also older then 12 years). The reason why i give no names is simply because they didn't ask me to and i don't want to create a BTS vs the rest war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, it all starts to become clearer. AH64D, you sound like a nice enough fellow, but be careful that you do not become the unwitting instrument of someone else's agenda. No insult intended.

Pixman

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Fact is the enemy of truth. - Don Quixote

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just sell the mac..buy a pc...enjoy 3d...make this world a better place<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sound like a spokesman for Bill of Borg