mensch Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I'm playing a QB with Scan and my canuck rifle squad in one building situation was going from worse to oak casket as a formal wear... so there is/was a full German rifle squad as far as I could tell, showing the cunucks a few good moves in bodychecking and crosschecking (that was a suprize) and another squad of unknow number entering the bottom floor. So I had a Crocidile in the near-by and seeing the rifle squad of mine was down to one man I torched the building frying a whole riflesquad (i think) and hopefully doing "hot painful" damage to the other unit. but killing my last canuck "bob" I like to call him from Halifax. do you think this was a gamey bad taste move or a logical tactic? I would be interested in seeing what you guys have to say (since I take often points from people like Barb (come back barb) and the rest serriously and with an open mind) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Well, "friendly fire" isn't, but it happens regardless. While a TC might hesitate to fire on an area containing friendly troops, I'm sure it happened. And while you as the more-or-less omniscient player know that you're firing on a friendly troop, the crocodile commander in real life might not be aware of that. So unless this developed into a recurring pattern of deliberately sacrificing troops to pin enemy forces in position so you could hit them with a FT, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Your opponent should have been aware of the Croc's existence and potential danger in any event. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 In the spirit of John Wayne in the Green Berets, I have called in artillery right on top of a hotly contested defensive position. Mind you, I weigh the pros and cons of casualties to my forces... but when it's the last man standing between victory and defeat, I'm inclined to call in the fire and prepare to hand out a posthumous Victoria Cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 In CE I once had a case where my opponent captured the house on the northern VL and about half a squad in it. I had one Sherman left and sat on the other VLs. He proceeded to fill the house with his troops for reasons unknown to me. If he had rushed mine I would have had it. We had already had quite a fight, and my GIs were out of ammo and had taken a lot of losses. I made the TC blow up the house with HE. I guess he shouted something like 'Hey but those are our boys in there...', but a virtual 45 in his neck made him do it. So in short I think that's okay. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 One thing to consider is, while there's only one guy left in your squad, there are also probably a lot of your wounded in there too. This doesn't make any difference in the game, but in reality I'm sure those concerned would be a bit reluctant to torch a house with friendly casualties inside. Also, in reality, your guys are more likely to think there are friendlies in there, than to assume that they've all bought it. For example, a squad goes into a building, and that's the last anyone sees of it. If you tell your guys to torch that building, they don't know what's happened to the squad, so they probably wouldn't do it. However, the reality of war is that a lot of men are killed either for no reason, or by their own side. David ------------------ Major General Maxwell Taylor found himself with several officers but only two or three enlisted men. "Never," he told them, "have so few been commanded by so many." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 What about positioning a flamethrower team hidden next to victory locations to torch the vp locale when the enemy gets near >:-> -johnS [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 09-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 It would be bad taste if they were not fully cooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Pike Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 Reminds me of the scene from the cruel sea were they had to depth charge a submarine hiding under some ship-wreaked sailors. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1st Lt:"contact bearing green 50, moving left" Capt "There are some men in the water just there" 1st Lt "well there's a German submarine right under them" "It's just the war, the bloody war"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I just requested an opponent to shoot the surviving crewmembers of an HT that apparently went berserk, and sacrificed itself in the most unintelligent maneuver a crew could conceive. Unfortunately he can't hit crews, only AFVs, and they are limping edgeward now. If they're smart they'll desert before I catch up with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I'm ambivalent about this. But then again I have rushed enemy positions knowing that unless something drastic happened, my troops would get wiped out. I do that sometimes if the enemy squad has changed back to the generic national logo. I am not absolutely sure that the enemy is still there -- but I know they probably are. So rushing is a foolish thing to do UNLESS they are gone. In your case though, whenever my troops have been in such a difficult position, they almost always end up getting wiped out. Esp. vs. the SS, who don't seem to know about taking prisoners, probably the concept is too complicated for them to grasp. If you had waited a turn would you still have any troops in that building? Probably not. War is FUBAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted September 5, 2000 Author Share Posted September 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead: It would be bad taste if they were not fully cooked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> heh canucks like to be fried like a donut eh! or pan fried like a Beaver tail (only us canucks know what that is) although shouting was heard from inside "hey you hosers were still in here!… ouch!" "aw man you torched mom's last beer!… ooch!" "you tell her; I'm not ya hoser… ow!" "no way man..ow!" "hey man we're not backbacon eh!… ow ooch oowie!" [This message has been edited by mensch (edited 09-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 5, 2000 Share Posted September 5, 2000 I'm with Leland on this one. If it is not a common "tactic" I see nothing wrong with it. In the end you might be doing more damage in any case. I am playing a PBEM game right now and initially got the stuffing knocked out of my only platoon (sucks to run up against a reenforced company in Tall Pines!). Although a traded 1:1, and then a bit more when my tanks saw some targets, I lost about 60% of my infantry force and have still a ways to go towards victory. So, I am currently running away... er... advancing in a different direction Why? Gotta get away from ground zero when the 300mm Nebelwerfers start coming down out of the sky Point is it would have been easier, and perhaps better short term, to keep my poor infantry right in there. They could have kept the Amis pinned down and assured that I whacked them all one way or the other. But... one stray NW round could have taken out all of my infantry. So on balance, not a good idea. I suspect that most circumstances encountered are like this and not like the one Mensch described. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eba Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 According to Stephen Ambrose in Citizen Soldiers, the Germans often called in artillery on recently abandoned defensive positions, even if some of their soldiers were still there. So, it's a realistic tactic if the payoff justifies it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Callmeyer Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Back in the early days of gunpowder, when cannon were about the only waepons using "fire", and wild hand to melees often determined the outcome of a battle, the CO (read, His Lordship)would watch at close hand, perhaps on a hiltop from which his men had sallied, and upon which his guns and reserves were still placed, as the two armies struggled for control of the field. Sometimes, if things seemed to be going to H**L, these noble gentlemen would call fire upon the field in general, killing scores or hundreds of his own men, but ending the increasingly unfavorable battlefield developments before him. I can't quote chapter and verse, but I know such things happened back in the "good old days." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 The needs of the many (other live soldiers) out weigh the needs of the few (the sacrificial friendly fire victims) ??? I would say do what ever it takes to win, if I only had one man left in that situation, I'd call in all the arty and fire power I had to take the whole damn building down. My opinion, and some of you have read this before, is "all's fair in Lvoe and war" and I think it is perfectly fine to do what ever it takes to win. Was your tactical situatiion better or worse after the "friendly fire" incident? If you were in a better position after then the ends will always justify the means. If you were in a worse sitaution because the flamethrower got targeted and blown up then it was maybe a very risky call and perhaps you excersised poor judgement. Still the idea is to play to win and if that means calling in arty on your own position there is plenty of historical evidence to indicate this did happen in some cases in WWII. just my personal thoughts -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 The English commander "loosed" a volley of arrows on his own men in Braveheart, so it must have happened even back then. ------------------ No me llamo Samuel, me llamo Pedro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: The English commander "loosed" a volley of arrows on his own men in Braveheart, so it must have happened even back then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm...using "Braveheart" for historical reference? I hope that smiley means it was a joke, Ryan. -Andrew ------------------ VOTE BLAH FOR PRESIDENT! Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it! BLAH IN 2000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 I've seen an opponent, I won't say his name..Dave T... who called arty fire on my squads who were next to his surrendered squad. I was hammered along with the dead prisoner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIJim Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 As for a gaming strategy I have seen firing into friendly troops many times. My favorite was in a game of Johnny Reb (civ war minatures game) where my friend had a regiment of green troops counter charge some elite rebs charging his guns. The two side ended up in melee right in front of the battery of napoleans and the greenies were getting killed. So.... a call for double cannister was made. When the smoke cleared there was nothing but a fine red mist (ended up picking up both regiments due to moral) That cannon shot stopped the rebel advance in it's tracks and the battle was won by the union. ever since then i have considered firing upon your own troops an acceptable tactic in dre circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Let's face it, it wasn't that rare in WW2 for commanders to call in artillery on their own troops, when the situation called for it. It happened in WW2, it happened in Korea, it happened in Vietnam, and it happens in the game. It is safe to presume that if a commander calls in fire on his own units, it is because it is going to facilitate his chances of holding or taking a position, and it is safe to presume that this is going to cost fewer casualties than having to take it back later, or whatever consequences would result from refraining. There are even documentated cases of units calling artillery on THEMSELVES, when it became clear that otherwise they would be wiped out. An illustration of this was in the Movie Platoon; if I remember correctly the Marines did it during the battle for Khe Son when they were being overrun. So please let's stop questioning evry unexpected move from our opponents (or from ourselves), and play the game as it IS, without worrying about whether everything is gamey or not Let me throw in a "gamey" play of my own: when I am about to lose and time is running out, I usually do one of two things: I surrender or I rush the flag (sometimes the former after failing the latter). A last-minute flag rush may be gamey, but occasionally it may turn the tide of battle, and if it doesn't, the battle was lost anyway. Although this may seem "gamey", it is not so ahistorical, because it DID happen in WW2 that one side or the other made a last-ditch assault against enemy positions when their situation looked desperate. This is typically shown in movies as some hero rushinig a pillbox and throwing a grenade into the slit, but there were many other situations where it happened (not to mention stupid suicide attacks such as the Canadian Black Watch being ordered to attack over open terrain a fortified German line defended by machineguns -there were only about 30 survivors from the regiment). Henri Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piekat Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 I'm reading a book called "Trincee" (trenches) regarding eastern (Carso)Italian front during WWI. Both the Italian and the Austro-Hungarian were not too much concerned about friendly casualties when ordering fire arty missions. Soldiers on both sides were afraid of friendly and enemy fire in the same way. Somethimes friendly arty (in rare cases) and MG (more often) fire was also used to push own troops to the attack. ------------------ "Memento Audere Semper" - G. D'Annunzio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 The only thing I find gamey is if someone is using a bug in the game to achieve something knowingly, all else is okey by me. If someone is shooting through a hill, invisible units eg. I don't know about any of this has happened but you get my idea. All enemy soldiers killed means less friendly killed, how you kill them is not an issue. Chivalry is dead anyway at least in our century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 "Der schlimmste Feind der Infanterie ist die eigene Artillerie." German proverb ("The worst enemy of the infantry is the own artillery.") ------------------ Lutz Senior Junior Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFog Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Firing the own men worked also some time ago in the good old "Squad Leader" board game. I remember playing the Germans being in melee with the Russians in the Dshershinski (or so)Motorfactory. The men in there where our last soldiers alive and I had the advantage of more and better men. My friend decided to let the arty fire onto the building and managed to survive this, while my men where killed or incapacitated. Risky and really Russian. Besides, since then I call my friend "Russian". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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