Guest Chris B Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I have been playing several armor quick battles. In one battle I had a jeep scout ahead. It discovered a Hetzer around a corner, and the turn ended there. My first order for the jeep was to reverse out of the danger zone, before the Hetzer turned and killed it. Instead the jeep fires of a salvo of MG fire and kills the Hetzer, the caption read Abandoned. The jeep then dutifully reversed out, and the Hetzer was in it's kill list. No other of my units were even near or in LOS of the Hetzer. This should not be possible. Sadly I do not have a save file. Anyone else seen kills like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 No, and scenarios were tested with 100 mg jeeps against a single tank. There had to be something else that happened or spooked the crew. What was level of the crew...green? I have played about 5000 games conservatively, and have not ever seen anything like this. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Several factors could make this possible. Most likely, the jeep (armed with a .50 cal MG, which is very powerful) killed the Hetzer's unbuttoned commander. This could cause a low-experience crew to panic and bail out. Your jeep was lucky. But remember that an "abandoned" result comes from the crew bailing, not from the jeep somehow crippling the armored vehicle. I suspect the Hetzer crew was either low quality, stressed out, or very unlucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I think Fionn ran into this also some time ago and couldn't believe. But from what I've hear, the .50 cal MG can (even if barely) penetrate the rear of a Hetzer (not sure about the sides, though) ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 At VERY close range a jeep's 0.5 cal HMG CAN JUST penetrate the side armour of a Hetzer. We're talking under 100 metres here... I personally feel that it shouldn't be able to kill a Hetzer with just one burst and that it should only be able to kill one commonly after several bursts BUT a one burst kill IS POSSIBLE. Highly unlikely but it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 The .50 cal loaded with armor piercing ammunition can easily penetrate hetzer armor i'm sure from the top and rear. I don't have the stats for the hetzer in front of me so I'm not sure about side penetration...i think it might be possible from a near-0 degree angle, like when the jeep is above the hetzer or the hetzer is tilted. Also, armor has weak spots coded though i think you should see such 'weak spot' hits displayed in detailed armor hits if you have those messages turned on. I know .50 should not be able to penetrate the front at any range/angle...unless some freak thing happens like bullets penetrate a vision port or go down the gun tube setting off the HE round inside. I had a short sherman 75mm bounce 4 times in a row off the upper and lower superstructure of a hetzer from 400 meters. Angle of incidence was probably 20 degrees on the upper super bounces, greater than normal slope on the lower slope bounces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 The .50 cal rounds could have hit the tracks and immobilized. Crews often bail when you can't move. ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 I have used jeeps before to kill hetzers. If you know where they are - it is a lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 I had a machine gun fire from M10 kill Hetzer in a PBEM game and through a two story building on top of that. Hetzer was going at full speed too, but my M10 had an exellent day, also killing a Stug42 and a Panther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Huang Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 The crew of the Jeep should get medal of honor !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 i had an 81mm mortar get a top penetration on a Hetzer. I was happy but puzzled until I noticed that the Hetzer only has 8mm of top armor. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Its stuff like this that makes me LOVE this game. All kinds of wierd stuff happens like this in Combat. Once, a Sherman knocked out a King Tiger with a SMOKE round (see "Death Traps", by Selton Cooper). The German crew panicked because they thought their tank was on fire. I think they were all gunned down by the Sherman's MGs as they bailed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Keep in mind that the Hetzer was really a piece of crap (IMO). On the outside, at first glance it appears like a fine, little Jadgpanzer. But in reality it was a seriously flawed stopgap weapon. The armor was dropped to a bare minimum everywhere except the front (the reason for your easy penetrations). Even the top was ridiculously thin. Now, considering the allied air superiority, this was not wise IMO. The main gun was designed to be loaded from the RIGHT hand side. Take a look at a Hetzer. The gun is mounted on the extreme right hand side. The loader was forced to sit behind the gunner and on the left (wrong) side. The loader had to reach across the gun to load it (thus, you get the "Slow ROF" listed in CM). It had very limited gun traverse, inferior armor plate used in its construction, it was under-powered... I read a couple of letters from a German vet who crewed a Hetzer (a loader IIRCC). He laughed at how people thought it was a good tank. He went on and on about what a piece of crap it was and how it broke down all the time. Gotta believe a man that used it. Funny thing (for me) is that when I was a kid it was one of my favorites. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Demon Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 this is off this topic but i had a Fallschirmjager (sp?) Squad take out 1 and half US Airborne Platoons, i got a pic of the kill stats and all the bodies scatered around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Stick with the PIV/70 or my fav the StuG Because Scott's quite correct the Hertzer is a very poor veh. [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 07-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi: i had an 81mm mortar get a top penetration on a Hetzer. I was happy but puzzled until I noticed that the Hetzer only has 8mm of top armor. Jason<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In *snip* I had a 3in mortar take out three Panthers. Two of them brewed. These things are deadly AT weapons. Forgot to add: useless against Tigers though. ------------------ Andreas [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 07-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Originally posted by guachi: i had an 81mm mortar get a top penetration on a Hetzer. I was happy but puzzled until I noticed that the Hetzer only has 8mm of top armor. Jason I would expect nearly every mortar/arty round to penetrate the top of a vehicle. That armor is really thin, even on today's AFV's. That's one reason why a (modern-day) tank's biggest enemy is not another tank, but a helicopter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Seems .50 cal MG has unbelievable firepower against most light armor. I lost a Puma yesterday to a single (albeit from flank) burst from a distance of about 300 meters. Little later I lost another heavy AC (the one with 75mm gun) exactly same way. OK, I believe the shots can penetrate the armor, but it seems it only takes about one hit to drive the crew to abandon the vechile. What's happening? Usually no crew members are dead. Are they just scared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWoodAgain Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Remember that the .50 cal was developed in WW1 to defeat armored vehicles, which it would of done easily against WW1 armor. However, I have to agree that a few more rounds have to be involved than 1 as one hole should not do it, but then again, once it penetrates, it is a slug of metal bouncing around inside doing all kinds of damage to equipment, men and morale. Think of it as a fully automatic Anti Tank rifle of a large calibre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Are they just scared? /B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wouldn't you be? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Wouldn't you be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd wet myself if someone would shoot in my general direction. But if I were in armored car, I'd rather drop to the floor, or try to drive the hell outta there. Not leave the vechile to run in the open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T. Gardner Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Well, here are the stats for the Hetzers armour: Front Superstructure: 60/60 Front Hull: 60/40 Side Superstructure: 20/40 Side Hull: 20/15 Rear Superstructure: 8/70 Rear Hull: 20/15 Superstructure Top / Bottom: 8/90 Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90 Gun Mantlet: 60 Saukopfblende (Jagdpanzer) I don't know what the penetration values for the .50 are with AP, but if anyone has them maybe we can clear this up. If it's an accuracy issue I'm sure BTS would do something about it. As an aside, the last time I saw a Hetzer was the Sunday just gone. Having 'tapped, prodded and poked it', and having seen what a .50 can do to a car I think it's very unlikely that a .50 could penetrate a Hetzer over 100m. Can anyone remember the distances involed in their engagements? ------------------ PTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Even though I always respect Fionn's judgments on pretty much everything WW2 I find it hard to believe that a jeep armed with a .50 is a Hetzer killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris B Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 To Renaud: >Also, armor has weak spots coded though i think you should see such 'weak spot' hits displayed in detailed armor hits if you have those messages turned on. No such luck. Apparantly hits by the .50 MG is not "armor hits". To everyone else. I tried creating a simple scenario with 4 Hetzers with their backs or sides towards first 3, then 6 MG Jeeps 15-20 meters away. Ok, this was a setup to give the Jeeps an advantage as getting close enough, in an actual battle, to a Hetzer to get a decent side/rear shot can be hard. But, results were pretty similar. In the first test (vs 3 jeeps) 2 Hetzers were actually set ablaze before the jeeps were done in. The second Hetzer in the first test was killed in a "running" battle with a jeep with the jeep moving on one side of a building and the Hetzer on the other side. In the second test (6 jeeps), 2 Hetzers were "knocked out" and a 3rd Hetzer was rendered immobile. More strange in both tests was that the Hetzers MG, which looks like it is mounted on the outside, was used to kill all jeeps despite the Hetzers being buttoned. Also a Hetzer fired shots through the intersection between two heavy town buildings. A LOS can be drawn through this space, but if neither building is transparent it is not possible for a user to look through this space. [This message has been edited by Chris B (edited 07-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted July 11, 2000 Share Posted July 11, 2000 Could the Hetzer's MG be remote controlled? ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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