CM Tank commander vulnerability to small arms fire

[markus544]

In CM games our commanders (WW2) seem to very vulnerable to small arms fire. It seems to me to be lopped sided. Almost always the tank commander gets picked off. Watched a you tube video not about CM in particular. What they talked about was a tank commander in allied camp operating from an open hatch during combat. Where the Soviet forces kept buttoned up. In built up urban areas I get it even with infantry in close support the tank commander makes a juicy target. But, out in the countryside? I was just wondering if the game engine is somewhat off as far as the frequency of my Wardaddy's getting smoked every time it seems to me.

[Warts 'n' all]

There have been plenty of threads about this subject over the years. And plenty of disagreements.

[Codreanu]

IMHO half-track gunners are way more vulnerable than they should be, but TCs don't seem as bad, maybe just make them easier to suppress so when their tank starts getting peppered with fire they immediately close the hatches instead of looking around like an idiot until a bullet finally finds them.

[Vacillator]

3 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

when their tank starts getting peppered with fire they immediately close the hatches

This is a bit variable, sometimes it works well - I'm currently two-thirds of the way across La Fiere Causeway and my panzers (such as they are) have all buttoned.  If I was one of the tank commanders I might have ordered reverse by now.  Worse is to come .

[chuckdyke]

32 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

I was one of the tank commanders I might have ordered reverse by now. 

If you play RT or FB the solution is to put scouts on the engine deck. For the T34/76 it is very advantageous you don't lose the commander gunner that way. For the Stug III it was standard practice. Yes the German name for them was Kanonenfutter the translation should be obvious. Spotting ability of the AFV goes up by 30% according to some testers. It is your call as a player. IMO a shortcoming in Battle for Normandy. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by chuckdyke

[IICptMillerII]

8 hours ago, markus544 said:

In CM games our commanders (WW2) seem to very vulnerable to small arms fire. It seems to me to be lopped sided. Almost always the tank commander gets picked off. Watched a you tube video not about CM in particular. What they talked about was a tank commander in allied camp operating from an open hatch during combat. Where the Soviet forces kept buttoned up. In built up urban areas I get it even with infantry in close support the tank commander makes a juicy target. But, out in the countryside? I was just wondering if the game engine is somewhat off as far as the frequency of my Wardaddy's getting smoked every time it seems to me.

There is definitely an issue. A few fixes have been tried over the years, such as adjusting animation/positioning of the model of the TC/gunner, but the issue remains. 

I was hoping to push for a fix for this (along with evidence showing that this is in fact an issue) with engine upgrade 5, but that is a very long way off. In short, i wouldn't hold your breath. Learn to manage with the way it is now, because it is not likely to change anytime soon. Not ideal, but that's what it is. 

[markus544]

Okay I get it. I can take comfort in the fact that it's not me and I am not out in the woods by my lonesome on this issue. Having said that, when I move my troops and vehicles around, I do tend to get somewhat reckless from time to time. Those nasty little Panzerfaust's. 

 

[Vacillator]

16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

put scouts on the engine deck

16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Spotting ability of the AFV goes up by 30%

Yeah that's a good shout.  Is there any difference to that percentage depending on who you put on the deck?  You said scouts - I imagine they're the best (except perhaps for FOs but I don't think you'd want them on there) compared to other types of unit? 

At La Fiere in CMBN as you say, I don't have that as an option but I think they wouldn't last long anyway given the small arms fire coming in.

[Redwolf]

I don't mind the tank commanders that much.

What I really mind is how vulnerable to frontal fire gunners are that have a shield to the front - such as the SdKfZ 251/1 halftrack.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Vacillator said:

Yeah that's a good shout.  Is there any difference to that percentage depending on who you put on the deck?  You said scouts - I imagine they're the best (except perhaps for FOs but I don't think you'd want them on there) compared to other types of unit? 

As far as I can tell it doesn't make any difference. WW2 RT becomes a game changer by placing infantry on engine decks the C2 becomes on par with other allied units. Tip let the armor travel on hunt and give the infantry a dismount order. The moment a tank receives full contact it stops, and the infantry dismounts automatically. Soviet attacks should be armor based with tank riding infantry. Spotting ability depends on experience veteran are best in this role. Equipment re binoculars troops with a minus are beneficial for scouting they evade the moment a hunting tank stops. 

[chuckdyke]

Some illustrations for the above.

Note you can split unit before mounting a tank. Give the tank a move order and a infantry unit a dismount order before mounting the scout unit. The units will remained split on the engine deck. It takes experimenting before you will get it right. The split scout gets a minus 2 his comrades a will keep their plus 2. Note the radio icon the C2 will pass on also to the ISU 152mm where the other members of the platoon are mounted. 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Brille]

I have no problem with vulnerable tankcommanders or halftrack crew to be honest, as long as  I stick with my own rule.

I almost always let my TCs have a look out until they reach somewhat around 300m to a potential enemy position. If I get under that line I will loose commanders now and then but not to a point I would consider unrealistic. But to be sure I often button up at this line.

The frontshield of a Sdkfz 250 or 251 seems very robust to me. I haven´t lost that many gunners, at least if they receive low volumes of fire. Enemy MMG would be the biggest threat to them. But I would say it is reasonable that out of mulitple bursts one bullet will find the small head part sooner or later.

But you have to keep in mind to position these halftracks directly to the source of fire. A little bit to the side and the gunshield will have only a small or no effect.

 

One thing that bothers me though is the accuracy of the PPSH41. Those little machines tend to be real commander killers at least up until 150 to 200m. Maybe it is just my bad luck on my part but I lost more commanders to them than to anything else...

 

@chuckdyke: Would be interesting to know if this relationship between infantry and tanks was practiced this way back then. I mean the german tank commanders tend to keep the hatches open even at ridiculous close distance to the enemy. So communication could have happened and was practiced. The US even had phones installed (on shermans I believe) to make this possible even more.

But it would be hard for soviet tankers, whoms machines are known to be very noisy, would have practiced that effectively. Especially when closing all the hatches at first enemy sight. But I don´t know as mentioned.

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Brille said:

Would be interesting to know if this relationship between infantry and tanks was practiced this way back then.

Unbuttoned doesn't mean they have their head outside the turret. The Soviet tank's hatch functions as a shield too. The infantry on the engine deck can shout his intel. Tankovyy Desant were the Soviet Panzer Grenadiers and trained us such. The Germans did the same with their assault guns their name was Kanonenfutter literally cannon fodder no point to risk a highly trained TC. In the game a passenger increases the spotting ability according testers by 30%. 

[markus544]

In that particular scenario "Tankovyy Desant" with those troops on the rear deck, that MG 42 off to the left across the stream. As the units round that corner, they normally come under fire from the wooded area. A few of the troop riders get smoked. The others who jump off have spotted the MG and the T-34 can bring it under fire. I have played that one many times. I have added mortar units in the editor and blasted that area prior, just for some fun.

Edited September 6, 2022 by markus544
spelling

[ZPB II]

It is an issue, and I would not be surprised if it is similar to a classic foible in FPS games: never peek your head out against the AI because it will hit a smaller area with the same chance as a larger area, making all the bullets land on your head with impeccable accuracy. Escape From Tarkov is a recent shooter that suffers from this, never ever peek against the AI in that one, it is always better to present your entire body as something to calculate random hit chance against.

Fair chance that when hits against the TC or exposed gunner is calculated, the hit chance is the same or atleast well stacked as if checking for a hit against the entire vehicle.

Edited September 6, 2022 by ZPB II

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, markus544 said:

Tankovyy Desant

Not that particular scenario. They are just tank infantry in Mountains of the Moon they are great and play a key role. I enjoyed Tankovyy Desant too don't get me wrong. Always put the tank on Hunt when it has passengers. Give the passengers 'n dismount order so that they don't stay on the engine deck when it stops. Happy gaming.