How to use Soviet infantry?

[evilman222]

I'll start this by admitting that I absolutely suck at the WW2-era games most of the time, but I find Soviet infantry particularly difficult to use effectively. I'm not talking about SMG infantry (which are quite deadly most of the time) but the regular Soviet rifle platoons. I get that you're supposed to use them the same way you would use a smaller German or American unit (A soviet platoon to accomplish the task of a German squad, that sort of thing) but even then I usually end up with massive casualties (which is, in fairness, somewhat historical). Is there any way to use them effectively and preserve their strength in campaigns, or should I just accept the fact that I'm going to take 30-50% casualties whenever I use Soviet infantry?

[Bil Hardenberger]

I haven't played CMRT in a while.. but when I did the BETA AAR for the game I used the Russian Infantry as follows (quote from my AAR):

Quote

 

Squad Attack Drill

If you have read my blog then you know what a squad attack drill is.. this is an example of one in action, in a real game. 3rd Squad/1st Plt./4th Company that was formerly scouting for 5th company was given the task of taking out the HMG team that has been sitting on the approaches to Blau for several turns now...

The LMG Team and the Rifle Team made up my base of fire while the SMG Team was my maneuver element...

Elvis tried to extricate the HMG team but they ran right in front of the SMG team which cut down at least three of them (bottom image). Next I close and finish any survivors.

Squad Attack Drill - the finish

The survivors of the enemy HMG team that I was attacking last turn surrendered as the squad's rifle team closed on the position... the SMG Team was back in support for this move and the LMG Team moved forward as well.

 

There is no reason you can't use proper tactics when playing the Russians in CM... you will need to watch them though as a split Russian squad becomes very fragile when out of C2.

Many people will tell you that splitting Russian squads should not be allowed, but I contend that, especially by this point in the war, they must have used a fire and movement/squad attack drill type procedure when operating.  The basic Russian Rifle squad is organized for it with an LMG Team, a Rifle Team, and an SMG Team. 

For more on basic tactics visit my CM tactics BLOG (link in my sig).

Bil

Edited June 3, 2022 by Bil Hardenberger

[Simcoe]

6 hours ago, evilman222 said:

I'll start this by admitting that I absolutely suck at the WW2-era games most of the time, but I find Soviet infantry particularly difficult to use effectively. I'm not talking about SMG infantry (which are quite deadly most of the time) but the regular Soviet rifle platoons. I get that you're supposed to use them the same way you would use a smaller German or American unit (A soviet platoon to accomplish the task of a German squad, that sort of thing) but even then I usually end up with massive casualties (which is, in fairness, somewhat historical). Is there any way to use them effectively and preserve their strength in campaigns, or should I just accept the fact that I'm going to take 30-50% casualties whenever I use Soviet infantry?

Using German and US infantry tends to give people bad habits like using an M1 Abrams does for tanks. Russian infantry will make you a better player overall.

Infantry's greatest assets is it's ability to move through rough terrain, observe without being seen and move quietly. To best utilize these strengths you must infiltrate rather than bludgeon the enemy. 

Each soviet squad can split out two scout units of two men each. spread these out and use them to find the enemy, if they get hit move them back and look elsewhere. Get your units in close and sneak them in every nook and cranny of the terrain. Once you have a good idea of where the enemy is and each enemy infantry unit is covered by at least two of your own you can strike. Hit them with everything you have and always have an extra squad or platoon ready to plug gaps.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, evilman222 said:

I'll start this by admitting that I absolutely suck at the WW2-era games most of the time, but I find Soviet infantry particularly difficult to use effectively.

They defend unless supported by armor. Soviet armor are units with radio, and you need them to generate tentative contacts to other units. Tactics I learned from @Hapless in regards British CW. With your LMs I don't target direct fire upon full contact but area fire at the same spot because I want to keep shooting once the German unit is suppressed. Also use the T34's MGs in this fashion but first make sure there is no German Armor or AT guns nearby. Also review your tactics with the Soviet HMGs are very useful weapon. 

[Halmbarte]

Just because as the Sov you have mass doesn't mean the only way forwards is a frontal assault. There are other ways to win that don't involve sticking your dick into the meat grinder until it jams. Recon routes that bypass the enemy, the Germans never have enough troops, guns, and/or tanks to cover every avenue of approach. Infantry infiltration is a thing.

Take you time*, don't be in a rush to die. You'll probably run out of people, tanks, and/or ammo before you run out of time. 

When you attack, attack! Don't poke with one finger at a time. Make a fist and crush the enemy with overwhelming force. 

Use a platoon to crush a squad > use a company to crush a platoon >> use a battalion to crush a squad. Fair fights are for suckers.

H

*Time spent on recon isn't wasted even if it may feel like it 

[chuckdyke]

Suggested tactic for Soviet infantry for the attack. Mount your infantry but split them before mounting. It takes a little practice but I soon got used to it. The T34/76 has only two men in the turret. If the commander gets killed you lose the gunner. Better have a scout on the engine deck. They won't combine on the tank if you give the tank a pause order followed by a move command. The infantry unit you wish to dismount should mount the tank first. Once he is mounted you give him a dismount move, He won't dismount because the tank has a move order which is paused. Now you can mount the two men scout team. Soviets need armor for the attack without it they don't pass on their contacts. Mounted infantry have acces to the tank radio. 

[chuckdyke]

*SPOILER ALERT* For people who have not played this scenario. Soviet infantry are handicapped by the lack of radios. The network needs to be established with their armor, observers, and HQ above company level. Once you have shared the tentative contacts the attack or assault can commence. Indeed, otherwise your losses will be unacceptable. Infantry on its own can only probe. Trees were temporarily disabled for illustration purposes. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by chuckdyke

[domfluff]

16 hours ago, evilman222 said:

I'll start this by admitting that I absolutely suck at the WW2-era games most of the time, but I find Soviet infantry particularly difficult to use effectively. I'm not talking about SMG infantry (which are quite deadly most of the time) but the regular Soviet rifle platoons. I get that you're supposed to use them the same way you would use a smaller German or American unit (A soviet platoon to accomplish the task of a German squad, that sort of thing) but even then I usually end up with massive casualties (which is, in fairness, somewhat historical). Is there any way to use them effectively and preserve their strength in campaigns, or should I just accept the fact that I'm going to take 30-50% casualties whenever I use Soviet infantry?

This is an older post by JasonC about how the Soviets should attack:

That specifically describes one method of attack (the attack in column), which is not the only method, but the principles there are sound.

Do you "just accept you're going to take 50% casualties"? absolutely not. One of the main principles of Soviet everything is mass, and that follows things like Lanchester laws - as in, if you have enough mass, then you end up taking less casualties than you might expect, because trades aren't 1:1.

So the attack above describes infantry moving to contact, then going to ground, let the supporting assets take the weight, then repeat. The infantry will take losses, sure, but they don't have to be heavy, and the second company then takes over and picks up the remains of the first.


In general terms, "thinking one level up" isn't quite accurate, but it's a good shorthand. You use a Soviet platoon as a single unit, on-line, and the support comes from somewhere else, like a second platoon or supporting assets. As a basic idea, treat a Soviet platoon like an extended squad, and move them as one unit.

[Freyberg]

I love Soviet infantry. I use them like Commonwealth infantry, but less tenatively; and I use both like WWI stormtroopers, moving forward fast, dispersed but plentiful, using cover, finding weakpoints and isolating strongpoints. Bring the radio-equipped HQs (Company for cavalry, Regiment for infantry and platoon for recon) not too far behind - thrown it all in (carefully) in a big dispersed swarm. Keep their snipers and their HMGs close behind the infantry. Don't let the mortars lag behind.

Of course they love tanks, but Soviet tanks can have spotting problems, so keep these back a little. The Soviet infantry's best friend is Soviet artillery and their own battalion mortars.

[chuckdyke]

21 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

Of course they love tanks, but Soviet tanks can have spotting problems

Not if you put a scouting unit on the engine deck. It puts the Commander-Gunner less at risk of a T34/76 especially. A Soviet Platoon. 1st squad to make contact,2nd squad to support and pick up the tentative contacts. 3rd squad to flank and finish. Keep up the IO till you have sufficient intel then combine armor, artillery, and infantry for one final assault. I know the 2men scouting unit on the engine deck is cannon fodder. 

[chuckdyke]

The SG-43 Goryunov is a terrific machine-gun if used properly. If you don't do anything it will fire, and the enemy is suppressed subsequently you lose your LOS and the MG stops firing. @Hapless has a video how to address this problem. It is why Camera Position 1 is important. You need to view your intended victim to change your direct fire mission to an area firing mission. Fritz will stay on the bottom of his Schützenloch (foxhole) and stays there till he notices a grenade landing between his legs. PS Use "Fire Briefly" you don't want to fire till he runs out. Keep it up till the assault party is inside range.  

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by chuckdyke

[evilman222]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:36 AM, Simcoe said:

Using German and US infantry tends to give people bad habits like using an M1 Abrams does for tanks.

Oddly enough I've had the opposite with the M1 in modern games. I'm so used to using vulnerable WWII tanks that when I have M1s I'm often too conservative with them, especially in CMBS when you have Trophy and it just turns them into nearly unkillable superweapons. End up using them as glorified artillery when in reality I should be WAY more aggressive.

11 hours ago, Freyberg said:

 moving forward fast, dispersed but plentiful, using cover

I think this might be where my problem lies. With the Soviets, I often find myself with so many units on the map that it gets hard to disperse them, and I tend to be too slow when moving them to keep them from running straight into a machine gun without stopping to take cover (I'd kill for something like a move quick command that will hit the deck upon contact like the hunt command).

[evilman222]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

The SG-43 Goryunov is a terrific machine-gun if used properly.

 

I think one of the main areas I need to improve on is using machine guns. I think I sometimes get too cautions about getting them mortared into oblivion that I often keep them out of the fight, which completely defeats the purpose of having them.

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, evilman222 said:

I think one of the main areas I need to improve on is using machine guns.

The purpose of scouts is pathfinding and the spotting of firing and observation points. In this game it is hard to position MGs in a defilade position, the reason they are vulnerable. The MG is an area weapon, use them as such even when you can fire directly at a position. Once the enemy is suppressed keep them suppressed, the MG42 doesn't give you a second chance. 

[chuckdyke]

*SPOILERS RED DAWN* Recon by Soviet forces is done by all of the company of the first wave by probing German positions. It means attrition, something which can't be avoided. Lost 5 men spotted trenches foxholes and bunkers. This field gun gave its position away by area firing on my hidden unit in a foxhole which was obviously a trigger. The unit inside is pinned. However, another unit spotted him. Soviets don't have radios apart from Above Company HQs and armor. Scouts of the second wave are the channel to communicate intel from the first wave to these units. Playing Soviets is an interesting game. See playing the AI as a sandbox exercise, a human player has far better macro management skills than the AI.

[chuckdyke]

Set Piece like you play chess. Exchange Pawns for Knights, Bishops, and Castles. Knights, Bishops, and Castles to capture the Queen and Checkmate the King. AKA Attrition Warfare only way to play Soviets in WW2. Therefore, their infantry tactics need to be mastered. PS the German position inside a foxhole. All a mortar attack will do is suppress the unit and the crew will hide in the bottom of their foxhole. The infantry will need to secure and seize the area. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Simcoe]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:52 AM, domfluff said:

This is an older post by JasonC about how the Soviets should attack:

That specifically describes one method of attack (the attack in column), which is not the only method, but the principles there are sound.

Do you "just accept you're going to take 50% casualties"? absolutely not. One of the main principles of Soviet everything is mass, and that follows things like Lanchester laws - as in, if you have enough mass, then you end up taking less casualties than you might expect, because trades aren't 1:1.

So the attack above describes infantry moving to contact, then going to ground, let the supporting assets take the weight, then repeat. The infantry will take losses, sure, but they don't have to be heavy, and the second company then takes over and picks up the remains of the first.


In general terms, "thinking one level up" isn't quite accurate, but it's a good shorthand. You use a Soviet platoon as a single unit, on-line, and the support comes from somewhere else, like a second platoon or supporting assets. As a basic idea, treat a Soviet platoon like an extended squad, and move them as one unit.

That’s an interest concept. So fire and manuever at the company level rather than with a platoon?

Is that why Russian tank platoons have three tanks instead of four? 2 tank fire element 2 tank manuever element for US. Russians it’s 3 tank fire element, 3 tank manuever element?

[domfluff]

3/4/5 tanks is a long standing question, but partially.

The logic behind three is that you maximise efficiency - you're the least likely to have more than one targeting the same enemy at once.

More tanks in a platoon add more firepower, but you get diminishing returns in a broader, analytical sense. Four allows you to split into two teams of two, so gives you more flexibility, and five lets you stack a team of three, or have two teams of two with a floating HQ.

Three tank platoons are a Soviet thing, but not just a Soviet thing, since the British use them too (or have done at various points). Equally, not every Soviet tank platoon is 3 tanks strong.

So, I don't think the three tank platoon is *primarily* because you're forced to use them as one unit, but it doesn't hurt.

[Simcoe]

19 minutes ago, domfluff said:

3/4/5 tanks is a long standing question, but partially.

The logic behind three is that you maximise efficiency - you're the least likely to have more than one targeting the same enemy at once.

More tanks in a platoon add more firepower, but you get diminishing returns in a broader, analytical sense. Four allows you to split into two teams of two, so gives you more flexibility, and five lets you stack a team of three, or have two teams of two with a floating HQ.

Three tank platoons are a Soviet thing, but not just a Soviet thing, since the British use them too (or have done at various points). Equally, not every Soviet tank platoon is 3 tanks strong.

So, I don't think the three tank platoon is *primarily* because you're forced to use them as one unit, but it doesn't hurt.

Thank you for the explanation.

[chuckdyke]

Tested the effectiveness of a foxhole a picture speaks a thousand words. Unless directly on it infantry is secure inside one. 

 

[chuckdyke]

*SPOILER ALERT RED DAWN* An excellent scenario to produce a sandbox model of how to use Soviet Infantry WW2. They don't have radios. The indigenous population of Australia didn't have radios for 60000 years. Their answer is fieldcraft to find water in the arid environment. I mimic this method with the waypoints of the 'movetool'. The scout team ('B-Team') infiltrates the area of operations. 'A-team is on 'Pause' and plots waypoints by copying 'B-Team's' Path. Scouts of the second wave will move to contact along the same path the 'A-Teams' copied and report back to the armored elements which have radio. 

The Map after 7 minutes of operations.

Showing positions, A-Team, B-Team and the scout of the 2nd wave.

Scout 2nd wave made full contact and will report back. Soviet armor is vital for Command and Control. House rule is 'Inclusion' no tentative contact or not in direct contact with a unit which has the intel no area fire.  

[chuckdyke]

The Soviet Infantry are masters in Cover and Concealment and Camouflage. Here they stayed hidden for four minutes. Almost on the same level as a world-class free diver.

[chuckdyke]

Find Them, Fix Them, Flank and Finish Them. When you get the numbers, attrition works. His partner went first, and he had no one to cover his tactical reloads. Kudos to the team who made these animations.

[Artkin]

10 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

 Almost on the same level as a world-class free diver.

And here you have the modern day equivalent: Russian recon engineer divers searching for mines 

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Artkin said:

And here you have the modern day equivalent: Russian recon engineer divers searching for mines

Some things could be modelled a little better. These guys must have duty leaden boots.