Infantry Tactics.

[chuckdyke]

Downloaded an Osprey Publication about this topic and see how to apply it in Red Thunder. Here we embedded a marksmen team in an infantry unit. Embedded to make him harder to spot among other infantry. Sure, enough the engine did the right thing. Scenario 'Bunkers Burning'. 

Had to do plenty of postprocessing to make him visible. The scenario is winnable but take your time to carefully plan every move.

The MG42 is awesome but the gunner can't hit a target he can't see. I enjoy playing Soviets and don't ignore the infantry. 

 

[chuckdyke]

It is for free. 

[dbsapp]

19 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Downloaded an Osprey Publication about this topic and see how to apply it in Red Thunder. Here we embedded a marksmen team in an infantry unit. Embedded to make him harder to spot among other infantry. Sure, enough the engine did the right thing. Scenario 'Bunkers Burning'. 

Had to do plenty of postprocessing to make him visible. The scenario is winnable but take your time to carefully plan every move.

The MG42 is awesome but the gunner can't hit a target he can't see. I enjoy playing Soviets and don't ignore the infantry. 

 

So how did you make it with Bunkers Burning mission?

I remember I completed it going through left side under smoke screen. It was absolutely artificial solution since I knew where the main threats were coming from and I reloaded multiple times because my tanks were bogged and immobilized or destroyed.

I tried to find different paths to victory, which would be more "natural", but they didn't work.

Basically you command Soviet infantry that is green or regular against veteran Germans in bunkers with machineguns, hidden flak, stug, minefield, barbed wire, mines and rough terrain where your tanks are certainly bogged. 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, dbsapp said:

Basically you command Soviet infantry that is green or regular against veteran Germans in bunkers with machineguns, hidden flak, stug, minefield, barbed wire, mines and rough terrain where your tanks are certainly bogged. 

Embed the +2 with the -2 and use the infantry to reveal the German positions. Here the accredited marksmen got rid of the MG 42. The tanks use them with shoot and scoot tactics. I admit when I first bought the game I was beaten as well. Now I use the scenario to refine tactics. The model I come up with is infantry based. The -2 infantry is cannon fodder but use it well. Like you noticed the T34 will trigger the Stugs. I assaulted the MG42 with a green unit but they survived apart from 2 troopers but the MG was taken out. Russian infantry is good in infiltrating. It is a nice scenario assault a fortified position. The US use the acronym SOSRA for mined positions Suppress Obscure Secure Reduce and Assault. Yes Obscure means you have to use smoke.Suppress can be done only if you have identified the positions. Secure and Reduce by fire superiority. Assault comes last.

Edited August 22, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Freyberg]

9 hours ago, dbsapp said:

I tried to find different paths to victory, which would be more "natural", but they didn't work.

It's been a long time since I played this, but I remember the Nazis being, as always, tough but brittle.

I played the way I usually play - a really big 'skirmish screen' across the whole frontage - because I need to know where everything is - then the rest of my infantry and heavy weapons, moving quickly but carefully; tanks following in tight bunches, not too far behind but VERY carefully, relying on a lot of infantry eyes up front, so even when I'm surprised, I quickly know why.

Like you, the left flank was where I broke through, but I recall some strongpoints on other parts of the line, with good overwatch, that needed to be eliminated before the left flank was properly open

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

relying on a lot of infantry eyes up front,

Exactly infiltration by the infantry is the key. I am fine tuning infantry tactics. Look at the quality and make sure every assault brings intel. Look at the +2 or even +1 of green troops give results. I find firing positions for the Soviet HMG's and infantry. The tanks attack all or they don't attack at all. They spent 10 sec at the most on a firing position. But I work on infantry tactics. Scouting and infiltrating. 

[dbsapp]

2 hours ago, Freyberg said:

It's been a long time since I played this, but I remember the Nazis being, as always, tough but brittle.

I played the way I usually play - a really big 'skirmish screen' across the whole frontage - because I need to know where everything is - then the rest of my infantry and heavy weapons, moving quickly but carefully; tanks following in tight bunches, not too far behind but VERY carefully, relying on a lot of infantry eyes up front, so even when I'm surprised, I quickly know why.

Like you, the left flank was where I broke through, but I recall some strongpoints on other parts of the line, with good overwatch, that needed to be eliminated before the left flank was properly open

I did something resembling what you are saying, but still I wasn't satisfied. 

For me this kind of missions remind a trap: first they look like an interesting scenario, but then after many rage quits you understand that it was a trolling.

It's like a sophisticated riddle you was trying to solve for days just to realise that it was flawed frome the start and never had a beautiful solution. 

[Freyberg]

8 hours ago, dbsapp said:

It's like a sophisticated riddle you was trying to solve for days just to realise that it was flawed frome the start and never had a beautiful solution. 

It was a hard battle with high casualties even when I played it, which was not long after CMRT was released. It sounds like subsequent updates have upset the balance of the game and perhaps made it unwinnable.

Plus, some of the campaigns are really bloody hard. I've had other campaign in other titles that I gave up on, because I couldn't be bothered replaying one battle for a second or third time...

[chuckdyke]

But we can all try and to sort out my Soviet Infantry Tactics. Made a few more screenshots. Green Infantry is useful, and quantity is a quality in its own right. 

[dbsapp]

2 hours ago, Freyberg said:

It was a hard battle with high casualties even when I played it, which was not long after CMRT was released. It sounds like subsequent updates have upset the balance of the game and perhaps made it unwinnable.

Plus, some of the campaigns are really bloody hard. I've had other campaign in other titles that I gave up on, because I couldn't be bothered replaying one battle for a second or third time...

I suspect the same, it seems like they changed something and the balance in game was distorted, but nobody cares.

CMFR seems much, much more reasonable to me than original CMRT. 

12 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

But we can all try and to sort out my Soviet Infantry Tactics. Made a few more screenshots. Green Infantry is useful, and quantity is a quality in its own right. 

So what was your general plan, what did you do exactly? 

[chuckdyke]

Plan is the US tactics Search and Destroy. it is bad strategy but tactically sound. 

Here we meet a German HGM team. My troops are green and theirs are veterans. We have the numbers and can afford an attrition battle they can't.

The Russian HMG needs some time to deploy but with 2 Russian split up squads the German MG42 team must suffer combat stress too. While he can return fire at only one team at a time, we can return fire from six different directions at once. The Russian HMG joins the action. 

Yes, the German morale is broken with fatal consequences. Protect your HMG teams at all times.

By leading with the infantry, the plan of the AI becomes clear. The corridors of my T34's are limited, obstacles of barbed wire trenches undoubtely protected by AT guns. The choice is either run out of time or run out of men. So far losses of the infantry are acceptable more or less 1:1 and I receive intel of location of obstacles and fortifications. Postpone all-out assault in the last 15 minutes of the game. 

 

[Bozowans]

I beat the Bunkers Burning scenario a long time ago with a giant massed attack straight up the middle of the map, almost human wave style. Not on my first attempt though. This was probably not long after CMRT first came out years ago. I remember trying to play like a western army at first and slowly creep my way up the flanks with small detached units but it didn't work. There was just not enough room to maneuver on the flanks and I couldn't bring enough firepower to bear.

So on a second attempt I massed my whole force together just out of view of the Germans, brought down a smoke screen covering up maybe half the German line or so, then told everyone to go over the top in a huge mass. I wanted to concentrate as much of my force as I possibly could on crushing the Germans not currently covered in smoke. Ideally it was supposed to be like 100% of my force concentrated on maybe 50% of theirs. I was able to knock out most of their bunkers and heavy weapons within a few minutes, then when the smoke cleared, I could shift fire and concentrate on the other part of the German line.

Once the biggest AT threats and bunkers were dealt with, I had the tanks and infantry just charge ahead across the fields. I wanted the flamethrower tanks to get in there fast, and the infantry to get into grenade and SMG range. It worked surprisingly well. The Germans were overwhelmed with too many targets at once and eventually collapsed.

 

On 8/21/2021 at 1:37 AM, chuckdyke said:

It is for free. 

I have a hard copy of that book.  I might have to dust it off and look at it again. 

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Bozowans said:

 I remember trying to play like a western army

Mine is probe with the lower quality troops and attack identified units with motivated and more experienced troops. Identify corridors my armour can negotiate. At the final push all troops in concert. The purpose of this thread is not so much, bunkers burning but to work on infantry tactics. Now I deal with German HMG positions and scouting. Russian units are slow to pass on contacts over their C2 network. So MG42 positions is up to their infantry to deal with. Above it was Find, Disperse and Attack. I have Two Flamethrower T34's for their bunkers and an SU85 to deal with German armour. It seems the German plan is to make me to use these assets prematurely. 

[dbsapp]

14 minutes ago, Bozowans said:

I beat the Bunkers Burning scenario a long time ago with a giant massed attack straight up the middle of the map, almost human wave style. Not on my first attempt though. This was probably not long after CMRT first came out years ago. I remember trying to play like a western army at first and slowly creep my way up the flanks with small detached units but it didn't work. There was just not enough room to maneuver on the flanks and I couldn't bring enough firepower to bear.

So on a second attempt I massed my whole force together just out of view of the Germans, brought down a smoke screen covering up maybe half the German line or so, then told everyone to go over the top in a huge mass. I wanted to concentrate as much of my force as I possibly could on crushing the Germans not currently covered in smoke. Ideally it was supposed to be like 100% of my force concentrated on maybe 50% of theirs. I was able to knock out most of their bunkers and heavy weapons within a few minutes, then when the smoke cleared, I could shift fire and concentrate on the other part of the German line.

Once the biggest AT threats and bunkers were dealt with, I had the tanks and infantry just charge ahead across the fields. I wanted the flamethrower tanks to get in there fast, and the infantry to get into grenade and SMG range. It worked surprisingly well. The Germans were overwhelmed with too many targets at once and eventually collapsed.

 

I have a hard copy of that book.  I might have to dust it off and look at it again. 

I tried concentrated human wave, but it absolutely fails under machine gun fire and mines. 

[chuckdyke]

Selecting Units for a Task works very well for large scenarios. He has a minus 1 for leadership but a +1 for morale. His mission was probing suspected German positions.

We select the marksmen team for 'Overwatch'.

 

The PDF file which came with the game could have been more detailed about this in my opinion. 

[Bozowans]

1 hour ago, dbsapp said:

I tried concentrated human wave, but it absolutely fails under machine gun fire and mines. 

I did make sure not to launch the big charge until I had spent several minutes shooting up the German lines as much as I could with every unit I could. All tanks on line firing, and lots of area firing on the trenches with as many units as possible. The Germans did have a few MGs still alive when I did the charge, enough to cause casualties, but not enough to pin down my entire force all at once. I remember the mines being pretty nasty too, but still not enough to halt the entire advance. My breakthrough point was right in the center of the map.

I have no idea if what I did would still work if I tried it again though. I probably got lucky knocking out the German Stugs without losing any of my own tanks. Or was it just one Stug? I forget. That kind of attack would probably fail horribly if I had lost too many tanks. Tanks always seem to do the most killing in CM by far.

 

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Mine is probe with the lower quality troops and attack identified units with motivated and more experienced troops. Identify corridors my armour can negotiate. At the final push all troops in concert. The purpose of this thread is not so much, bunkers burning but to work on infantry tactics. Now I deal with German HMG positions and scouting. Russian units are slow to pass on contacts over their C2 network. So MG42 positions is up to their infantry to deal with. Above it was Find, Disperse and Attack. I have Two Flamethrower T34's for their bunkers and an SU85 to deal with German armour. It seems the German plan is to make me to use these assets prematurely. 

You certainly pay more attention to troop quality than I do. I need to remember to check that kind of thing more often. It's a good idea to probe with the bad troops and save the good ones for assaulting.

It always seems like the #1 thing for winning fights in these games is to just put out more bullets and more volume of fire than the other guy. When it comes to infantry tactics, sometimes I feel like the hardest part is just finding spots to put everyone where they have LOS and can shoot. I don't even think that cover and concealment is really all that important. I just try to find a way to get as many guns firing as I possibly can. It doesn't matter if your guys are wide out in the open if you are consistently out-shooting the enemy the whole time. It can be tricky with the WW2 Soviets though because you usually have to get in close to get that fire superiority with all the SMGs.

[chuckdyke]

18 minutes ago, Bozowans said:

I don't even think that cover and concealment is really all that important.

Using a game of chess anology cover and concealment promotes a pawn into a castle or bishop. He who shoots first tends to live longer. Here is a suggested cause of action. 

We need more intel before the final assault. All my key units will have their mission using the above method. It will be attrition and the plan is that the German units won't cope with the combat stress. 

[chuckdyke]

The above is a suggestion only using a chess game we need the Queen to win an attrition battle. It means we employ everybody in concert. Infantry, Artillery and Armour. 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Bozowans said:

It always seems like the #1 thing for winning fights in these games is to just put out more bullets and more volume of fire than the other guy.

You need to hit more often than the other guy. With all the automatic weapons marksmanship falls by the wayside. I do this because I want the kills from my riflemen to go up. And nobody spots better than infantry on the ground. Artillery on its own delivers an overkill wherever it strikes with a spectacular boom but with very little casualties. Omaha Beach was a case in point. German MG's and mortars did most of the killing. Only overcome by the heroes on the beach with their small arms. 

[domfluff]

Soviet doctrine was straightforward and brutal, and this is reflected well in CMRT.

A Soviet battalion attack might be versus an enemy company, but you can shift up and down scale there and have the same basic result.

This would mean attacking along a narrow frontage with a company of your own, in the Command Push - that is, relying heavily on your (excellent) terrain read, sending out scouts aggressively on the preplanned route of advance to make contact.

Company should be 2 up, one reserve. All the usual small unit stuff should apply, but you're fundamentally walking into the unknown.

When they make contact, they engage  - not running mindlessly, but attacking in the same manner as everyone else since 1918. If they can sweep aside the force there, great, if not they hunker down in whatever cover they can find, form a base of fire, and start calling in the next set of artillery whilst the second company advances behind. This "If/then" structure is fundamentally similar to the kind of thing you find in US battle drills (and everyone elses), but the scope and scale is a bit different. The RT manual mentions that you "should treat a platoon like a squad", and whilst that's really true, it's a fine place to start. 

The second company then picks up the attack, along with whatever is left of first company, and the plan continues. When you're down to engaging with the final company then your attack is halted, this is pretty much the limit of your advance, so you dig in and go defensive.

So that's the principle - maximum mass on as limited a frontage as possible, movement dictated and coordinated with a sophisticated fire plan (it's an "artillery army"), and a command push, speed-first approach.

"Human wave" is a distortion, of course. The Soviets were not stupid, and although the above scheme is simple, it's also brutal and effective.

[chuckdyke]

Use three companies and a HMG Company. This attack is infantry led Probe, Attack and Assault. The scouts here are paired with the armour as their C2 is not functioning to the higher echelons (No radios) The armour has radios so they are the communication channels. The warning orders in this scenario was clear infantry losses can't be helped. Straight from an SS Veteran they were masters in infiltration, when you woke up in the morning you could find a company all around you. This is not reflected in RT, this is a challenging and enjoyable scenario. Infantry leads the way they communicate by firing missions of the mortars. As every HQ unit can contact the mortars, they are also the channel of communication. 

[Rinaldi]

On 8/22/2021 at 3:09 AM, dbsapp said:

So how did you make it with Bunkers Burning mission?

I remember I completed it going through left side under smoke screen. It was absolutely artificial solution since I knew where the main threats were coming from and I reloaded multiple times because my tanks were bogged and immobilized or destroyed.

I tried to find different paths to victory, which would be more "natural", but they didn't work.

Basically you command Soviet infantry that is green or regular against veteran Germans in bunkers with machineguns, hidden flak, stug, minefield, barbed wire, mines and rough terrain where your tanks are certainly bogged. 

Hope you don't mind if I chime in? I found this scenario a challenge but not insurmountable. Like yourself my initial movements were on the left, along the rail line. I made good progress at first but got caught up on the bunker and while I was able to work a T-34 forwards I could not keep the German infantry heads' down and had to withdraw under Panzerschreck fire.

I kept a unit there to take pot-shots at the Germans and shifted my efforts to the centre-right. I remember concentrating my maxims in the orchard (with the wood fence) which was decent cover and allowed me to put grazing fire all along the trench line, as well as on the forested hill. The AT guns were able to put direct fire onto the hill as well and I shot my SMG units and engineers onto the hill and poured through the gaps in the wire. Flamethrowers took massive losses but a team worked its way up to the bunker and I had my break in.

From there I was able to route an entire rifle company through and break into the second obstacle belt, forming a base of fire in the captured trenches. I was then able to direct accurate mortar fire on PaK guns and work a few OT-34s forward to engage. I lost two T-34s doing this, one getting destroyed whilst bogged (of course) I did get lucky with the StuGs however and knocked them out from hull down positions. 

I do think strikes up the flanks can work but a thrust down the centre would require more off map support than what is provided, even though that route has the most gaps in the obstacle belt for you to work your way through. The recon was able to infiltrate quite close and use the anti tank ditch to identify targets though. I lost quite a few of those men running back and forth to Battalion HQ to report, but the information was worth its weight in gold for the close attacks. 

[chuckdyke]

42 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

Hope you don't mind if I chime in?

No, I don't mind it at all. I just try to micromanage the game better and found this the perfect scenario to do it. 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Rinaldi said:

I lost quite a few of those men running back and forth to Battalion HQ to report, but the information was worth its weight in gold for the close attacks. 

Why don't you use the 'Mortars' Fire Direction network as your communication channel? Every HQ can contact it, also mortars were used by shooting flares. The other method is direct communication with the HQ T34's. We have here the integrity of the game but there is the go-to spotter option. There is a lot of generic stuff going on in the background. The map updates when more of the German's position becomes visible. How? maybe it takes into account runners for example. Happy gaming. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Erwin]

9 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

The PDF file which came with the game could have been more detailed about this in my opinion. 

Yes, this method of selecting large nos of units I have never understood or used in the 14 years of playing CM2.   Thank you for explaining...