The British SS?!

[Schrodi]

I was wondering, I've read a few times that the Canadians were used as the British SS, or shock troops. Apparently this goes back to WW1 too. I've read accounts(from almost every country that has an opinion on this, [assuming the Russians don't]) that range from: good quality British units to elite allied supermen. As far as quality/moral et al. How are they being modeled in CM? Canadians are supposedly know for there modesty, and in their writings seems as shocked as anyone that they turn into these types of soldiers. (the old joke being, in Canada, Napoleon would have been a nobody)

I hope someone with informed opinions on this can add some comments. To be honest, I had no idea they even participated in D-day as a Canadian force until browsing a book store after I got there on my sabbatical year. I can't tell, do I subtract American level jingoism when reading Canadian accounts or British level...or are they really that modest?(I now this varies by author too.) etc.

[Moon]

There is a great book which describes Canadian action in great detail - "Rhineland. The Battle to End the War", by Denis Whitaker, who was Lt.Col. and CO in the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry. It's available in Germany too from "Ullstein" as "Endkampf am Rhein".

One thing that becomes obvious from reading it is that while the Canadian Soldier must have been extremely brave, their commanders had the weirdest ideas about how to make war. Frontal attacks across open space near the Schwanenhof, the fighting in the Moylandwald ( ) during Operation Veritable and so on. Incredible losses which could have been avoided easily.

[Mark IV]

A great Canadian shock action was the assault on Walcheren Island, as part of the Battle for the Scheldt. This story really doesn't get a lot of press but is worth looking up.

German gun emplacements on the island threatened the fuel resupply of Patton's rapid advance. The British navy and Canadian assault troops were assigned to take the island (which was connected to the mainland by a causeway). German direct fire took quite a toll on the amphibs and landing craft. Huge rocket-battery craft were used to sweep the beach area, and the Canucks went in. Bloody little business.

Interestingly, the island's defenses included a German unit composed entirely of men with hearing disorders from other fronts, mostly the East. They acquitted themselves very well.

[Major Tom]

Originally Canada's contribution to the British war effort was to supply an aircrew training facility. However, as early as 1939 this plan changed as the 1st Canadian Division set sail to England. It, along with the 52nd British divisions were landed in France to form the nucleous to a new BEF just before the collapse of France. However, they were soon re-embarked in great order (only 3 people were lost) back to England. For a long while, the 1st Canadian Division was the only fully armed and equiped formation to defend England!

Hey, don't get me started about the blismal Canadian commanders. It seemed as all of the good ones were sent to Italy, leaving the crumbs of the army to fight in France, until 1945.

I am aware that in WWI the Canadians were treated as the British Shock troops. Their placement was kept as quiet from the Germans as possible, as, where the Canadians were, an assault will take place. I cannot really say what makes Canadian's good soldiers, a willingness to sacrifice? Canadian's casualties were fairly high in both wars in proportion to the troops engaged.

One example of military blunders, and indeed the will of sacrifice was of the engagement of the Black Watch Battalion, an elite Canadian formation. It was supposed to take a position on top of a hill with out any flank support, or tank or artillery. The German's slaughtered them, however, they kept coming. It was actually remaniscent of a Japanese Bonsai charge. The Germans got so sick of the carnage and respected their bravery that they refused to fire on the troops when they finally withdrew, in good order I might say too.

Yes, the Third Infantry Division and the 2nd Armoured Brigade touched down on Juno Beach on June 6 1944. The Canadians were also the last large allied force to set foot on the continent since 1940. Operation Jubilee, in 1942, was up to that time the largest amphibious assault. The 2nd Canadian Infantry Division landed with a Battalion of Candian Churchill tanks to test out the theory of assaulting a Port Facility in an invasion. It was a disaster caused by poor planning and sea support (only 6 destroyers!) However, the RAF put up over 170 Squadrons as air cover and not one German bomb landed on the Beach. Losses were around 1000 KIA and 2000 POW out of a force of 6000 all in one day.

Not too many people are aware of this, but, the Canadians also had an army in 1944. Yes, the 1st Canadian Army not only consisted of the 2nd and 3rd Infantry along with the 5th (or 4th?) Armoured Division, but, had under its command British forces! This was the first time that a General from one of the Colonies actually commanded troops from the British Isles. The Canadian I Corps (1st Infantry and an Armoured Division) fought in Italy from 1943-45 when it was transferred to Western Europe.

The Scheldt was a deadly encounter as Mark IV stated. Imagine, charging an entire division accross a narrow causeway while taking heavy weapons fire? Honesty, if it wasn't for the RN Marines landing on the seaward side there would have been many more Canadian deaths. Having this place cleared up would allow for ships to bring in supplies to Antwerp vs. driving them all the way from Cherbourg! This was one of Montgomery's screw ups. He neglected this area until the German's had time to fortify and reinforce it to the size of about a division! The Redball express used up more gas than it brought to the front!

However, back at the Normandy Break out, Patton criticised the Canadians for being too slow in closing up the Falise gap. However, Canadian and Polish formations were repeatedly bombed by USAAF and RAF heavy bomber formations! Every time they would try to advance they were cut to ribbons by bombs! During these early operations the Allied high command was dumb enough to use heavy bombers as tactical weapons.

Another horrible blunder by commanders was during a night assault. Well, it wasn't really the commander's fault as you will see. Well, the benefit of a full moon during a night assault was spectacular. However, during the time of the assault there was a preponderance of clouds. So, a technique of shining spotlights into the clouds to create artificial moonlight was suggested. Indeed, if it worked it would have proved to be very successful. However, someone screwed up and put the spotlights level to the ground, siloeting the solders as they advanced.

Another blunder/heroic event was that of Hong Kong. Two Canadian Garrison Battalions the Winnipeg Grenadiers and Royal Rifles of Canada were sent from their garrison duties in Bermuda to fight at Hong Kong. Under equipped and ill trained these along with the other British and Indian formations fought bravely against overwealming numbers and quality of their enemy.

Also, by 1945 the Canadians had the 3rd largest navy in the world. Sure, there weren't any battleships, but, there were many cruisers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes. We even had an aircraft carrier! However, only the crafts destroyer size and smaller were built here in Canada. Even still, it was a very large number!

It seems like the Canadian soldier was plaged in just about every war. During WWI they were issued guns that were good for hunting, but, clogged up with dirt after 5 seconds on the Western Front. The venerable Ross Rifle was a horrible piece of equipment.

During WWII they were cursed with Generals who had absolutely no experience in commanding from such a large position as a Corps or Army. Even some divisional commanders were not up to par.

Also, during the planned invasion of Japan in 1945, the 6th Canadian Infantry division was formed by veterans from the West Front. If this formation ever landed in Japan it would be a force to recon with!

I don't know how this will be modeled. Possibly having Canadian troops on average being Regular-Veteran? In hindsight, one too has to remember that a vast number of British troops were already veterans of 4 years of war up to 1944.

[Fionn]

In the same way that the SS, paratroopers etc won't get any intrinsic bonuses this will be left up to the scenario designer.

The performance of Canadians can be set high by simply assuming that they have fanaticism on their side ( a toggle in the setup screen now) and giving them high experience levels.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Mark IV]

Ya gotta admit, the notion of "fanatical Canadians" seems a trifle oxymoronic (NOT a comment on their war record, BTW). Given Canada's relatively placid disposition, the phrase is as jarring as "mad cow".

Of course, the best way to set Canadian troops to "fanatical" is to issue a case of Molson and some hockey sticks...

[Doug Beman]

It's like my older sister says: "They dress them up in thick pads and helmets, give them big sticks, and THEN wonder why they whack each other so often. If they wore no pads at all there'd be a lot less hitting."

DjB

[Major Tom]

The worst thing you can do to a Canadian is to insult Hockey or Canadian beer.

I recommend for people trying to understand Canadians and America's relation with Canada to watch the movie "Canadian Bacon". Funny, but true.

Well, maybe not Molson. It claims to be the Canadian beer, seeing as they have a beer called the "Canadian". But, you find an awful lot of Canadian breweries here. Here in Guelph we have the Sleeman Brewery. Regularly go there for tours of the facilities, where they give you unlimited taste tests for beer.

Well, Road Hockey in the summmer, when we lose half of our snow, does not require the use of mega amounts of protection. Except however, for the poor goaly.

All that furosity is most probably the expendature of anger developed from visiting Americans. Imagine how fanatical the SS would be if they would have Americans living next door to them! Just kidding, we would never want to upset our nuclear armed friends from the south...

[Neutral Party]

Major Tom

Excellent post. No offense meant but I had a good laugh about the bonsai charge - all those wittle twees. Maybe the Germans thought they were in a production of Macbeth and Birnham Wood had come to Dunsinane.

Sorry eh!

Joe

[Major Tom]

Tossing small Asian trees at the Germans usually worked fine, but, in this case I think that they were ready for it.

Actually, as I was writing it, I was thinking wether or nit o wiz taping ut rit? Damn Microsoft Spellchecker!

Bonsai, Bonzai, Bonanza? They are all the same, eh?

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-08-2000).]

[MikeO]

The Canadians in Normandy had a ferocious reputation, most notably in the fighting between 3rd Canadian Div against 12SS PD which developed into tit-for-tat atrocities. No-one knows exactly who started shooting prisoners but few were taken on either side. In 'Caen: Anvil of Victory' Alex Mckee describes the following event:

'"I witnessed a real carnage of troops (German) in a field close to Carpiquet," wrote Sergeant Gariepy. "The Germans had succeeded in infiltrating the advance post of the Regiment de la Chaudiere, tough, rugged French-Canadians who brawl on weekends for divertissement, at home. We were very close by when the alarm sounded at around 0400 hours. The Regiment de la Chaudiere scurried in the semi-darkness and actually slit the throats of most soldiers they found, wounded as well as dead. This horrible carnage I actually saw from the turret of my tank at first light. These boys were actually crazed by some frenzy at being caught napping; the officers of the Regiment had to draw their pistols against their own men to make them come back to reason..."'

In the same book the author claims the main difference between Canadian and British troops was that the Canadians were all volunteers whereas Britain had conscription and was severely lacking in manpower (losses in the Great War still hurt).

Helmut Ritgen in 'The Western Front: Memoirs of a Panzer Lehr Officer' has the following to say:

'At one observation point, Point 102 near Cristot, a Canadian scouting party returning to its unit surprised the command group. The one armed Oberst Luxenburger was struck down and tied to one of the reconnaissance tanks. The enemy tank was later destroyed by an anti-tank gun from II Btn, 26th SS PzGren Regt. Only Major Zeisler was able to flee unharmed...After crossing the Channel, the Canadians had to overcome the exhaustion of the subsequent day-long combat operations by taking Benzamine, stay-awake tablets. These "Benzies" - similar to the German Pervitin, increased one's physical capability, but also reduced scrupulousness and thus increased one's bloodthirstiness - were the continuation of the despised chemical warfare of the First World War in another form...'

This book was published recently by the excellent *Canadian* company JJ Fedorowicz - perhaps, like Saving Private Ryan, a general catharsis is happening on the allied side now we have passed out of the 'John Wayne' era.

Cornelius Ryan also mentions the use of 'Benzies' (commonly known as a type of 'Speed' these days) by British Paras to overcome fatigue in 'A Bridge Too Far'. Does anyone know of similar official use of drugs by US or Russian troops in this little told WW2 story?

[Mark IV]

Major Tom: The worst thing you can do to a Canadian... is to make him drink American beer.

I grew up in Detroit. The lines to Canada were long on Friday night, as hordes of Amis craving beer with actual flavor (not to mention alcohol) backed up the tunnel. Brador, Carlsberg, Labatts- those were values worth fighting for (my taste ran to the Molson Golden, BTW).

As for hockey, like I said, I grew up in Detroit. Sorry about that, eh? Go Red Army.

PS: If Don Cherry was PM, Canada would have nukes, and they'd probably use 'em.

[Major Tom]

Actually, I don't follow Hockey too much, but, still know who Don Cherry is. However, I did watch the Winter Olympics, the Canadian Hockey team was accurately quoted by one of my friends as being "Kings of Garbage".

I have always thought about seting up a Bar at Nigra or Windsor, all of those un-drunken 19-20 year old Americans would make me a billionare to rival Bill Gates!

Mike O, Put together a bunch of French Canadians and just about anyone and you will have a brawl on your hands. Had a friend who went to University of Ottawa, right on the boarder of Ontarion and Quebec. He had multiple stories of bar fights with French Canadians for just being English Canadians. However, I am sure that every nation has its dark military records. Whoever started it will never be known. I tend not to like reading books of autrocities as no matter who writes them or which side they are talking about they always exaggerate one side over the other. As I understand it, atrocities took place either through a misunderstanding of orders, or, through the actions of individual soldiers.

Actually, there was a Conscription Crisis in Canada. Conscription was only used to fill up the defence of Canada rather than supply manpower for the front lines. There were 5 Infantry and Armoured Divisions, along with many independent Brigades, Corps and Army HQ Units. Also, there were 3 full divisions of volunteers and conscripts (Called Zombies) guarding the East and West Coast. I think that almost 1 million men and women were in the Canadian armed forces. This is a really large figure especially for the population at the time (around 11 Million?). I Think England mobilized around 4.6 Million people. 42,000 KIA during the 6 years that we were at war.

[Bullethead]

Major Tom:

The worst thing you can do to ANYBODY is make them drink an American "beer." Unless it's one I made myself, but mine are all copies of Brit and Scots ales . [the human body is a wonderfully complex machine designed to turn good ale into lager]

And if you think French Canadians are rough, picture the descendants of those that got evicted from their homes up there and have had to live in bug- and gator-infested swamps in Louisiana ever since. Where they interbred with similarly evicted Scots .

As to hockey, we like it down here in Bayou Country, too. You got a bunch of yankees, yankee Cajuns, and commies all beating each other to death with sticks. With 2 "halftimes" so you can really get drunk. What's not to like?

-Bullethead

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The worst thing you can do to ANYBODY is make them drink an American "beer."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, to true. The boys of Monty Python said it best: "American beer is kinda like makin' love in a canoe... f#@%in' close to water"

Of course Canadian beer ain't much better. Real beer comes from Ireland... and you can stand a fork up in it

[Guest Zigster]

For a first class treatment of the conscription crisis, manpower shortages, and the startling gap between battlefield performance and whatever-the-hell-they-were-doing-in-the-HQ-tent, you can't do better than "Failure in High Command - The Canadian Army in the Normandy Campaign" by John A. English (Golden Dog Press ISBN 9 780919 614604).

As to Canadian troops being used as, or considered as, Imperial SS... Rubbish. We had to beg and plead and cry just to get included. The 1st Div, which arrived in early 1940, did not see action until Italy. They sat in England for three and a half years.

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Der Zig

[Major Tom]

Zigster, indeed, the Canadians had to beg in WWII for engagement, but, wherever they were egaged they really made something of themselves. There were multiple feats of heroism in Italy, but, we weren't included in all of the big disasters like Cassino and Anzio. The Canadian I Corps in Italy was on the East coast of Italy, far away from the mountains of the centre and the main attention of historians.

Dieppe, long considered a dark point on Canadian Military history is wrongly interpreted as so. It was a British plan that went awry, and like the ANZAC at Gallipoli the Canadian's at Dieppe took too much responsibility for the defeat. Not a single Canadian unit cracked and broke, even with the horrendous casualties and small chance of getting back to England. They achieved as many goals as they could under the circumstances. This was the 2nd Divisions first combat, and did much better than most veteran allid formations would have.

It took the SHAEF way too long to issue Canadian's with any good combat duties after the Normandy era. We were given the duties in clearing out enemy held ports (Someone had to do it!) until the time came to clear out the Scheldt and liberate Holland.

In WWI Canadians were recognized as the Shock Troops, in WWII they still had the same ability but neither the British nor Americans were willing to admit so until 1945.

Plus, to say that all Canadian commanders are incompetent is wrong too (even though I previously stated this point!). General Crear, commander of the Canadian Expeditionary Army in 1939-42, Commander of the I Canadian Corps in Italy 43-44 and Commander of the 1st Canadian Army in Europe 1944-45 was an outstanding leader and military commander even with his advanced age.

There was a labour shortage in the Canadian army as well as in the British army. I blame this mostly on the focus of both Armies on having a large strategic Airforce. 50% of all British and Canadian KIA was of as a result from air operations from 1939-45. Most of these casualties took place in the relatively inefficient bombing of German cities. The Allies built up too big of a Strategic Airforce that was not doing its job. Freeing up men for the more important role of the Army, or that of the Tactical Airforce could have probably sped up the victory of the war, along with less casualties on all sides.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-12-2000).]

[howardb]

Strange about neighboring countries. The closer and more similar they are the more they hate each other. Norway - Sweden. Usa - Canada. India - Pakis... ehh.. I'd better stop there.

[killmore]

I believe russians were getting 100 grams of vodka before attack and 250grams if attack was expected to be very bloody.

[LT CANADA]

The British SS? Ive read in many books the Germans calling us Canadians that. In one book about the Rhineland a German arty Captain said that we always got the tough jobs...thats unfair. Although We Canadians were sacrificed at a very high rate during Hong Kong, Dieppe,Normandy (Verriers ridge, Falaise),Sheldt (causeway). lots of others countries got just as beat up, and fought at the same level as the SS. The British 1st Airborne, Everyone trapped in Tobruk in '41, The Americans at Omaha.

I beleive the Canadians were shock troops becouse we were never really out of contact with the good German divisions. In Ortona we fought the 1st German Airborne division and in North-west Europe we fought the (as with the rest of the 1st Canadian army) 1st SS panzerCorps and their heavy tank battlions, and after we got out of that mess we came up against poorer German Formations while clearing the Channel ports...they Canadians mauled those Formations. Then we Came up against the elite Parachutists in Holland and the Rhineland. And in everyone of these battles the Canadians came out on top!. But the Canadians were always beside the Brit Formations within the 1st Canadian army (and the Polish armd Div). If the Canadians are goint to be known as Shock Troops than The whole of the first Canadian army should be known as that...Not just the Canadians.

[Colin]

This morning when I got up out of the igloo to feed my dog team so I could go to the hockey rink for a beer I was attacked by a polar bear. I couldn't get away fast enough because the snow was some 30 feet deep. Can't wait until June! Some of the snow will leave and we can all watch the Stanley Cup (and play CM I hope)!

Go Leafs!!!

Colin Richardson (London,Ontario,Canada)

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Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! With some exclusive images courtesy of the Combat Mission HQ!

cm4mac.tripod.com

[This message has been edited by Colin (edited 01-12-2000).]

[Mark IV]

Colin, Colin: Dominion igloos are gubmint multi-level, so 30 feet (that's 10 meters, eh!) of snow would only affect the first couple floors-

The bear would have eaten the dogs first (Canadians are harder to clean)-

Leafs? It's leaves, eh? Wings rule, I know it's tough, ya gotta deal with it. And CM in June, that was pure exaggeration, right?

[Colin]

Yeah I'm just playing around. Here's the real deal.

This morning when I got up out of the house to go to the bus stop so I could get to school I was almost late. I got just in time. Can't wait until tomorrow. Maybe it will snow for the first time this year and we can all play the gold demo of Combat Mission. Though I'll proabably won't get either!!

Go Wings!

(How's that for an interesting look into my life!)

Colin Richardson (London,Ontario,Canada)

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Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! With some exclusive images courtesy of the Combat Mission HQ!

cm4mac.tripod.com

[Major Tom]

Let me guess Colin, Western is the koolest school in existence? Over hear in Guelph (if anyone from London can read a map just kidding!) we gotz ourselves loads of snow. Of course, it all melted before the sun came up!! Actually, it is snowing right now...

Here's an average day over in Guelph...

Get up at 12:30 to get to my 1:00 class, get home, watch TV, go to bar, drink some beer, come home, play CM PBEM (no wonder I suck!), go to sleep, wake up for class...

I love having 9 hours of school per week!

Major Tom

Guelph, Ontario, Canada

Colin

You know of the Western/Guelph, or rather Western/Any-other-university rivalry? Ever hear this slogan?

I'd rather step in sh*t at Guelph than to sleep with it at Western. Made me laugh until I stopped!

Hey, don't worry, I have relatives who live in London, and Friends who go to Western. At least you don't live in Hamilton! (Or did I dig myself into a bigger hole!)

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-13-2000).]

[Guest Zigster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:

This morning when I got up out of the igloo to feed my dog team so I could go to the hockey rink for a beer I was attacked by a polar bear. I couldn't get away fast enough because the snow was some 30 feet deep. Can't wait until June! Some of the snow will leave and we can all watch the Stanley Cup (and play CM I hope)!

Go Leafs!!!

Colin Richardson (London,Ontario,Canada)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO. Okay, Colin, you officially owe me a beer (on account of the one I just spit through my nose).

Y'know what they say about summer: Three months of bad skating