Tips for players CMx2 <--> Graviteam

[markshot]

There are some huge differences on and off map arty between CMx2 and MIUS (which includes Tunisia and GTOS).

* In CM, pretty much any officer/FO (on the net) can call in a strike (and spot) for on or off asset regardless of organic TOE.  Of course, if you are low in rank and in the wrong company, then you are going to wait longer.  In rare cases, like for naval guns, you must be the right FO.

* In MIUS

** Only the FO associated with the given offmap battery make call in a fire mission.  Tough **** if a sniper puts a bullet through his head; goodbye battery.

** For on map batteries (most commonly mortars or field guns), you have your section firing officers and battery officer.  ONLY the battery officer may call in indirect fire or command direct fire (other than gun spotting direct).

** The above battery officer (or platoon officer for tanks). Must have comms.  Either voice (not very safe for mortars), radio (rare), or phone.

** Phone is a big deal.  You must have the right organic phone company, not just any Tom/Dick/Harry with a spool and wire splicers.  If you are on defense (in an op you have not moved 2 turns), then phone wires are assumed.  Note:  you still must have the right organic unit, but you don't need to wait 20 minutes for the wire to be run.  If it is a custom scenario, you can set whether it is "prepared defense or not" (if they get to dig-in, then it is prepared).

** If you are on attack in the op or set it in the scenario editor, then you must run wire which could take 20 minutes.  Also, note if you are on defense, and decide to relocated because some spotting rounds just fell on your position or battalion orders a counter attack, then you will need to RERUN wire.

Edited May 5, 2021 by markshot

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, markshot said:

Only the FO associated with the given offmap battery make call in a fire mission

Play Seelow in F&R only the FO can call artillery. I wish you good fun with MIUS I got rid of it. We all play to have some fun. 

[markshot]

Well, this isn't about merits, but as a CM player it took me a lot of experimenting to work out the rules of indirect fire.

It is like being Spanish speaking, you naturally want to be speaking Spanish in Brazil, but it ain't so (despite how close they are).

[chuckdyke]

34 minutes ago, markshot said:

Well, this isn't about merits, but as a CM player it took me a lot of experimenting to work out the rules of indirect fire.

If we don't agree with some rules, we are free to make your own house rules. 1944 Eastern Front Soviet artillery was set piece using map references. If you had some practical experiences regarding preplanned, priority targets and opportunity targets you can make your own house rules. Do research and write down the protocols which are realistic. I do it with Command and Control. On the Eastern Front, Soviet fighter bombers have their own independent missions and yes sometimes they commit fratricide. US forces in World War 2 had for the time state of the art communications. Yes, HQ Shermans can call in fighter bombers in FB this is historically accurate. Appreciate as a game designer they must gather for everybody. Without customers BF will go broke. 

[BornGinger]

On 5/5/2021 at 9:55 AM, chuckdyke said:

We all play to have some fun. 

I have watched a few videos of this game by the youtuber Tonci87 and he sure enjoys playing Mius Front. It seems that the orders you give to your troops are a bit more advanced than what we have in Combat Mission, which seems to be a problem for some people that expect something like Men of War or similar, but that is possibly making the game feel more correct.

I have often wondered why there's no option to order the troops to walk in single line or on a wide formation in CM. And in CM there's also no option to order the troops to move forward and to tell them where to run if they are being shot at. When playing wego that kind of option isn't necessary but it could be useful for those that play real time.

If my laptop can play this game I'll try it out and I am sure I'll have fun with it. From what I have seen from the videos by Tonci87 it seems Battlefront could learn a lot from Graviteam if they decide to make a new game engine.

Edited July 29, 2022 by BornGinger

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, BornGinger said:

I have often wondered why there's no option to order the troops to walk in single line or on a wide formation in CM.

You achieve this by splitting. For your other issue taking evading action this needs time management. You can plot a move for the full 60 seconds, but you don't have to. Example the 'hunt command' listen for 45 seconds and move for the last 15 seconds is one suggestion. My biggest issue is path finding. If I plot the first move on the road and the last move on the same road, I would like to see that the vehicle stays on the road without plotting ten or more corners which you must repeat all over again for all the convoy. The soft factors in CM is in my opinion superior compared with Mius Front. But you know what they say about opinions.

 

4 hours ago, BornGinger said:

And in CM there's also no option to order the troops to move forward and to tell them where to run if they are being shot at.

For this you need to take note of the Combat Stress Pyramid if units are stressed or shocked (Fatality)they don't follow orders. The reason I prefer CM above Mius Front.

[BornGinger]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

You achieve this by splitting.

Splitting troops don't make them walk in single file. There is always two or more soldiers walking to the left or right which often makes it risky to have one or two squads walk along a narrow area with slopes on both sides.

And the same with having them walk in a wide formation. They seem to move in a diamond formation, or something, instead of in a wide formation.

[chuckdyke]

42 minutes ago, BornGinger said:

They seem to move in a diamond formation,

It depends on the terrain, but I agree the player has little or no influence on the formation. It game when they moved from three to four. Like RT3 to RT4. 

[chuckdyke]

On 5/5/2021 at 4:48 PM, markshot said:

In CM, pretty much any officer/FO (on the net) can call in a strike (and spot) for on or off asset regardless of organic TOE.

Yes, in CM you're free to have your own custom protocols. Example FR Red Dawn no way I let a Sapper Platoon call a mortar barrage by himself. (No Radio) the Mortar FO also has no radio. So, the Mortar Fo had to stay in close proximity to a HQ unit with a radio. For the Sapper HQ after he called in mortar support he need to have a runner to pass on the tentative contact to the Mortar FO who needs to be in communication with his HQ with radio. But we need also to have an enjoyable game for people who don't like it to be complicated. Someone has problems with cease fire and I don't. I feel all it takes is fire a flare to confirm a mission. The problem with house rules is when you play PBem which is unlikely in our case. Something for everybody is fair enough. 

[Simcoe]

Funny this thread shows up right as I'm trying out Graviteam. I'm giving it a solid try but the tutorial does not make it easy. I played the attack tutorial and my tanks are running in circles while getting hit by an AT gun. 

The operational aspect of the game looks very exciting though so I'll push through it.

[BornGinger]

7 hours ago, Simcoe said:

'm giving it a solid try...

I'm about to do the same. I think there should be youtube help to find about certain things. And then there's also the Graviteam forum where someone hopefully is explaining things. If not, I'll have to learn while playing the game.

Edited July 30, 2022 by BornGinger

[Simcoe]

5 hours ago, BornGinger said:

I'm about to do the same. I think there should be youtube help to find about certain things. And then there's also the Graviteam forum where someone hopefully is explaining things. If not, I'll have to learn while playing the game.

There's a Youtube channel called Warsimmer and he has a lot of great tutorials.

[BornGinger]

All right. Will have a look after I've fought myself through the in-game tutorial missions.

[Blazing 88's]

On 5/5/2021 at 3:55 AM, chuckdyke said:

...I wish you good fun with MIUS I got rid of it...

Yep, I ditched it within about an hour maybe a good two hours after trying it a year or two ago.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Blazing 88's

[chuckdyke]

29 minutes ago, Blazing 88&#x27;s said:

Yep, I ditched it within about an hour maybe a good two hours after trying it a year or two ago.

I wish people who chose to play it all the best and years of enjoyment. For myself I am 72 years old and doubt I have the time to finish all the CM games in my possesion. Besides I am not sure if it is cool to promote other games on this form. 

[BornGinger]

16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Besides I am not sure if it is cool to promote other games on this form. 

Why shouldn't it be? If Battlefront is worried about competition they will have a good reason to improve their game engine or even make a new and much better one. They can also decide not to care about it as they understand that competition about the gamers is a part of their business.

[Blazing 88's]

Stir stir stir.... you are good at that. Congrats.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, BornGinger said:

If Battlefront is worried about competition they will have a good reason to improve their game engine

I think Graviteam need to improve their game engine too, I think their soft factors are inferior. Shocked and stressed soldiers don't follow orders in CM. One of the most common complaints about CM is LOS issues and troops doing their own thing the other is C2 with artillery. We look here at the time period from 1944 till the present using the same system. If you use tactics from BS and try to use them in Red Thunder it doesn't end well. Read books and do a little research and customise the game as you see fit. What I like to see in Engine 5 is. Cameras Street Maps and Topographic Maps in Camera position 8 and 9. If you use the street map you would click start and destination and all the convoy will be using the road to get there. Likewise the toppographic map a formation will use the terrain to get to its objective. The C2 needs to be less abstract and have a dedicated signal unit as we do with engineers. Easier said than done I am not a software developer. I make my suggestions but don't see the need to refer to different games. with the camera I like to see a POV which puts you inside the vehicle or lets you look through binoculars. A perfect game doesn't exist better learn with this fact.

Edited August 1, 2022 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

This man is involved with Combat Mission professional. I follow his suggestions with artillery he made a little prototype game, which I would like to see in Engine 5.

 

[Anxel Torrente]

Now when many of this forum's members are feeling solidarity with Ukraine it's probably about time that they also show their solidarity by buying this game.

Their office was apparently hit by Russian artillery during the attacks on Kharkiv.

How are devs doing amid the war in Ukraine?

Please support Graviteam Tactics

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Anxel Torrente

[benpark]

Absolutely support them. Their games are great. I prefer the more hands-on approach that CM brings, but Graviteam does Company/Platoon command very well.

[markshot]

Wow.  I was surprised.  To logon and find out after a year Chuck has quoted me.  (Kind of like waking up from a coma.)  I've been off doing some City Builder stuff (simulated war just seemed too close to reality; writing now from Taipei); otherwise I have been playing and learning the GG classics of WITP-AE, EDBTR, WITW, and WITE-2.

But I think I am ready to return to ground combat.  Of course WITW/WITE-2 are ground combat, but I mean 3D and small unit action.

Some thoughts ...

* I would never have created this thread if I saw Graviteam as a direct competitor to CMx2v4.  I have been here for more than 20 years; don't ask me what the forum rules say.  But it would be unethical to use this board to promote a direct competitor; also I have too much respect for BFC to do such a thing.

* But MIUS is not a direct competitor, the feature set and style of play are different enough that they attract a different mindset of the WWII hardcore gamers.  Of course, like me, you can enjoy both.

* I am returning to ground combat.  I like GG's games, but Gary has managed to produce games where the full campaign ends up on gamers "bucket list".  Setting up for the USA in WITP-AE for the grand campaign takes 2 weeks before you play Turn #1.  EDBTR the allied air campaign is daily and unlike WITW/WITE-2 you are creating AIR DIRECTIVES for missions to be carried out by the AI.  EDBTR ... you are creating daily missions themselves ... we are talking hundreds of days of air war.  WITW and WITWE-2 we are talking 500 and 700 turns respectively ... would be like CMx2 where you could mark out the footstep of each trooper.  I suppose some gamers get their general physical and a clean bill of health, and launch a grand campaign.  I might if I was younger in good health.

* I want 3D and smaller action than the GG titles.  I've decided to return to CM.  Again personal consideration; not product superiority.  It was the WEGO and replay.  I want no time pressures.  I want to just deal with the immediate considerations and not the larger operational context.  CM fits me at this moment for what I want.  If I  had wanted operations and a larger scope and higher level command, I would chose MIUS.

---

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE GAMES THAT I AM DECIDING.  IT IS ABOUT ME.  FOR THE EXPERIENCE I WANT CMx2 IS THE ONLY SERIES OF QUALITY ON THE MARKET.

Edited August 7, 2022 by markshot

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, markshot said:

It was the WEGO and replay.  I want no time pressures.

Very nice comment, we also need some suggestions how to manage larger scenarios. Battalion level is what I look forward to. To micomanage squads on platoon level stops being enjoyable above company level. We look at Engine 5 I suspect. 

[markshot]

 

Chuck,

Have you checked out Panther Games (an Australian Company)?  The first title in the series RDOA (Red Devils Over Arnhem) began here, BTS.  I joined as a beta/team member.

We then moved to Matrix (before the sale to Slitherine), and did HTTR, COTA, and BFTB.

HTTR - Highway to the Reich

COTA - Conquest of the Agean

BFTB - Battles from the Bulge

These titles are no longer available.  Maybe on Ebay.  I believe old CD/DVDs installers should work as we did not use Window drivers, but simply serial number.  But you would need an optical drive (less common today) ... also I am not sure where you can get patches.  I probably have the official Matrix patches if you ask.

After the demise of Matrix; former owner David Heath began LnL Publishing.  Lock and load publishing and we moved there.  The current offering is CO2 (Command Ops 2) available on Steam.  The basic engine and a few scenarios are free.  The above and more are available as DLC scenario packs.

It is not 3D, but counters and pseudo topographical and terrain texture map.  Not unlike GG's WITW/WITE-2 but without the hexes.  Continuous movement and continuous (pausable; and you can give orders) time.

It is the most scalable war game in existence.  Both CM and MIUS have a natural scale.  Go outside of that and play becomes awkward.

For Panther, command and map is represented like an OOB.  Really three OOBs.  You have organic, dynamic, and transitional.  You are the senior commander on map.  You generally command those would would logically be your subordinates; although you can micromanage specific units.  So, you strike your balance between broad strokes and micro.  All AI HQs behave as intelligent agents.  That is why it scales so well.

Further, the game is very much based on the OODA loop.  No games implements time and delays better.  Battle is continuous:

* Normally an attack will reach the objective, exploit, and secure.  But if the enemy is on the run, you may want to issue new orders to not permit them the time to withdraw and dig in at the next blocking position.  So, much of the game is to discern when, it is time to change the plan.  To change orders in the middle of an attack can be the biggest disaster you will ever make as advance begins to fall apart as some get the command and others don't leaving flanks exposed.

* Suppose ... You have 3 battalions.  Do you order each into independent uncoordinated attacks?  Faster.  Or do you order the brigade or division, coordinated but taking much longer to kick off.  So, you can have action in 4 hours or better action in 10 hours.  What do you do?

* Night/day considerations are very important.  Grab the enemy by the shirt at sunrise if you are facing heavy arty.

* The famous OODA loop is at the very core level of the game model.

Except for the lack of 3D, I think this game might be very suited to you.

With each title we added features ... better tools, mixed mode movement, supply lines ...  But I think even RDOA holds up well today.

Now, with regards to the latest offering:

* The big change has been pre-CO2 all games was fixed screen layout of child windows.  CO2 introduce floating non-child windows.  If you only have a single display, you may find the earlier titles cleaner.  But if you have 2 or more displays, CO2 gives you better SA.  In fact, if you have 4 displays, you have the War Room.

* Unlike BFC we didn't do engine upgrades for earlier titles, but as the business model changed and the engine is free ... all the DLC representing former content is upgraded to the latest features.  I do believe to some extent the scenarios have been reworked.  So, if you loved HTTR, but supply was way too simplistic.  Well, now it is is not anymore.

Scenarios range by two orders of magnitude in unit count with no great curve in player complexity, because AI agents.  Time ranges from 1-30 days.  Roughly.  Game performance is relative to unit count.  Don't assume unit count increases per title ... I once did an analysis of this.  Also, all titles offer variable size scenarios.  The engine offers difficulty parameters in the form of:  order delays from instant action to realistic chain of command delay, historical reserves to non-historic, historic weather or better or worse, and supply historic or better or worse.  Victory is based on point based flag system with VLs scoring for time and/or at end, and they may only be active for part of the scenario.  Some scenarios too much give you a plan by sequencing VLs, and others are more wide open letting you decide how to get the job done.

 

Chuck, I hope that helps ... if you or willing to forgo 3D.

[chuckdyke]

19 minutes ago, markshot said:

Chuck, I hope that helps ... if you or willing to forgo 3D.

I got more than enough games from BF to keep me happy. Thanks for your suggestions. I just admit above company level to manage CM becomes a shore. I can do it but there should be a way to manage convoys and company level troop movements. I am afraid I need to wait for Engine 5. Apart from that I really like CM. Recently I changed my mind and purchased Black Sea. To analyse properly a mission, I need to study the encyclopedia which came with it. Kind regards and happy gaming.