Should my Vehicles stay Buttoned Up or can they Open the Hatches?

[THH149]

With modern optics on tanks  and APCs, is there an advantage in opening up? Does spotting improve in practice? 

How good are optics in CMSF2 anyway, are they 'equivalent' to 10x zoom on vehicles? 3x on infantry guns (10x on binos , night vision, javelin)?

THH

[Erwin]

I use this guide.  Not sure if it is comprehe nsive:

BUTTONED SPOTS BETTER:

Here is a possibly incomplete list of vehicles that spot better while buttoned all the time (but only to the front of the vehicle).

M1A2 Abrams

T-90AM

BM Oplot

M2A3 Bradley

M3A3 Bradley

M7A3 B-FIST

Khrizantema

Tunguska

I don't know for certain, but I think it very unlikely that vehicle crews have night vision goggles, so nearly all vehicles should stay buttoned in low light conditions.

 

UNBUTTONED SPOTS BETTER:

 

Recon-specific M1127 Stryker with LRAS3

SPOTTING - TO BUTTON UP OR NOT.docx

[Sgt.Squarehead]

15 hours ago, THH149 said:

is there an advantage in opening up?

Only for enemy snipers.   

To be fair it might help shorten C2 links between infantry and vehicle crews, especially if they are from seperate formations, but not by terribly much.

This largely applies only to Blue (US/UK/NATO) vehicles, with only a couple of Red types in the same class (T-90SA, T-72AV TURMS-T, T-72M1 TURMS-T).  Everthing else on the red side might as well open up to facilitate C2 and get some use out of their DShKs (maybe not in an urban environment though).

PS - ATGM vehicles.....I still don't have a clue how to get any worthwhile use out of those things!  Any novel suggestions would be welcome, I've tried the usual things, but they always seem to get picked off in an instant!  Does make me wonder if CM:SF2 (& CM:BS) are too generous when calculating the chance to spot an ATGM launch.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

still don't have a clue how to get any worthwhile use out of those things!  Any novel suggestions would be welcome, I've tried the usual things, but they always seem to get picked off in an instant! 

Have found some success in doing a "scoot 'n shoot" maneuver.  Move the ATGM vehicle to a hull-down position it can spot (preferably only one enemy vehicle) and let it PAUSE there for 20-30 seconds before reversing to safety.  George MC's El Derjine campaign has that situation in at least a couple of scenarios (on maps that provide 2Km LOS).  (The player has TOW's mounted on Humvees and Strykers.)

But, yes it's a big flaw that CM2 cannot depict ATGM vehicles in hull-down with only their optics exposed (or with telescoping optics/missile launchers).

Edited December 9, 2020 by Erwin

[THH149]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:00 AM, Erwin said:

Have found some success in doing a "scoot 'n shoot" maneuver. 

Just yesterday I pushed a BMP-1 up to a crest line using Slow and stopped it Unbuttoned, pretty soon it saw 3 Warriors move then stop in a group right in front. The AI took over, fired the ATGM to hit one Warrior and then reversed the BMP back down the slope out of LOS. Pretty nice, but i was just experimenting to test the BMP a bit on the basics. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'm impressed that a BMP-1 survived being in LOS of three Warriors at all, let alone taking one out....That's borderline miraculous IMHO! 

Gonna try unbuttoning my BMP-1s next time I have them.....But maybe not Soviet ones in Afghanistan, that might not end so well. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[THH149]

That BMP come up to the crest and was roughly "turret down" to peak over with the ATGM aiming mechanism,  rather than the whole vehicle sitting on the crest!

 

[FlemFire]

I only open up the hatch if it's to arm an MG that I want to use or reload one of those awkward ATGs. That's literally it. Guys hanging out in the cupola are insane bullet magnets in CMx2. Sometimes you'll want to make more use of it in the WWII games and their tank duels, but SF2 is modern age, and in the modern age the optics on some of the vehicles is essentially better than the human eye (in a sense...).

Edited December 11, 2020 by Khalerick

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Khalerick said:

in the modern age the optics on some of the vehicles is essentially better than the human eye (in a sense...).

But as the chart I posted points out, that is true for most vehicles only to their front.  If you get LOS to an enemy flank, there's a good chance they won't see you.

[THH149]

Just to clarify, is this discussion about sharing spots between units only applicable in Iron mode? I've played very little on Iron (is it the gold standard of CMSF2?).

Since the player themselves can see what every unit does or doesnt see, is there a practical effect to this other than that a particular unit can't shoot at what it doesnt see?

THH

[Sgt.Squarehead]

If you want to understand what your unts are doing (& why) Iron Mode is the way forward.....You can see what each unit sees, know who they are in contact with and follow information as it is passed along and across the chain of command much easier. 

It doesn't affect game difficulty in any way.

[MikeyD]

Anythng 'cold war era' or earlier it might be best to open up as long as you're not in close proximity to the enemy. Open up and stop & observe. Those old Russian tank can barely see anything and its worse when they're buttoned and moving. I once did a test of CMSF2 Bundeswehr tanks. Leopard 2A4 seemed to have taken a bit of a 'cold war vintage' spotting hit, itself, seemingly much worse than Leopard 2A6.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I don't believe the Leo 2A4 has a panoramic thermal imager for the commander, or not such a good one at any rate.

[chuckdyke]

Buttoned up, in a WW 2 game firing on the move with commander's hatch open and on hunt. In Shock Force 2 Fast Move Buttoned Up. Makes no difference with an Abrams, Leopard or Challenger they have a high probability of a first-round kill. Fast move is also a good defense against Kornet ATGM's 

[IICptMillerII]

The following is for CMBS and CMSF2.

SyriansRussians: Open up until contact is made. If in urban fighting, stay buttoned. The Syrians are using Soviet equipment and tactical doctrine. The vehicles optics are not very good, especially against opponents equipped with thermals, so you are going to want to have your tank commanders unbuttoned to give them a better chance at seeing things. Syrian tanks essentially have the spotting ability of WWII tanks. Even for the thermal equipped Syrian tanks I would still recommend having the tank commanders unbuttoned until contact, because the thermal imagers they are using are pretty terrible. Operating unbuttoned is also doctrinal, the Soviets planned to move into the attack unbuttoned and only button up once contact was made. Russian thermals frankly are not that great either. They are better than what the Syrians are using, but worse than US thermals. They do not have to rely as much on being unbuttoned as the Syrians do, but it still helps more than not. 

NATO: It depends, but generally speaking buttoned up is the safer option and won't reduce your ability to spot. I say it depends because C2 and situational awareness are still important factors. In real life, tank commanders tend to be unbuttoned until contact because its just easier to operate a tank that way, especially when coordinating with other tanks. the CM benefit of staying unbuttoned is information sharing. An unbuttoned tank commander will have a better idea of all friendly units around him, and can share spotting information with units outside his formation, such as infantry or engineers. Again though, once contact is made and rounds start flying, it is much safer to stay buttoned up.
IRL even when driving/fighting through urban terrain US tankers tended to stay unbuttoned, many times firing small arms from their turrets. In a few instances, using those small arms to shoot attacking personnel off the hulls of their tanks, such as during the Thunder Runs through Baghdad. However, in CM turned out crewmen tend to be a bit extra vulnerable to small arms fire, so it is much safer to just keep them buttoned in urban fighting. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by IICptMillerII

[THH149]

Also, my experience in NATO Teamwork Required is that BMPs can unbutton while getting into hull down, shoot their ATGM and then withdraw and close the hatch. Those dudes become really switched on!

[chuckdyke]

'Iron Mode On WEGO' since I start playing on this mode, I never looked back. Each turn is a mini game. The AI! you find a dug in T55 or even a T72 in hull down, they are just camping and won't move with even ranging shells exploding all around them. Or the tanks next to them brew up by aircraft or choppers. Quietly waiting for their turn. Tip Snipers paired with the 81 mm mortar can brew up BMP's just select Armor from the options list. Against a human player you need harassing barrage from a second gun to mask your ranging shots. Human players at least my brother doesn't camp.