Are ATGs tougher than they used to be?

[Bulletpoint]

41 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Never really thought about it but I do wonder why it leaves a contact if the player knows it's been KO'd (ie they've seen it confirmed as a kill).

Could be because BFC are not really sure what kind of game mode they want to base their design desicions on - realtime or turnbased.

In a realtime game, the player might well have missed seeing the knocked out gun, so the marker would keep him guessing.

[Howler]

Or, it could be spotting info takes a while to propagate. Unit A gets the KO but the rest of the alphabet won't know this immediately. Especially past the letter M which is often at the other end of the map...

Also, parts of unit A may not have LOS at the time of the KO... stuff happens.

[John1966]

18 minutes ago, Howler said:

Also, parts of unit A may not have LOS at the time of the KO... stuff happens.

But this is where I'm baffled. You get the contact icon for a dead tank often when no unit is selected.

I appreciate individual units might not know it's KO'd (or even aware it was there in the first place) but the omnipotent (whether we like it or not) player does. So why bother leaving an icon there when no unit is selected? After all, that's the player's view.

[Bulletpoint]

19 hours ago, John1966 said:

But this is where I'm baffled. You get the contact icon for a dead tank often when no unit is selected.

I appreciate individual units might not know it's KO'd (or even aware it was there in the first place) but the omnipotent (whether we like it or not) player does. So why bother leaving an icon there when no unit is selected? After all, that's the player's view.

I think that view is actually not the player's view, but the view of the highest level of local command (regiment?). If you, the player, see something happen on screen, it means at least one of your units saw it and you're 'looking through their eyes' at that moment. But the contact marker system represents the knowledge each unit has, so on higher levels that info hasn't ben updated yet.

The weird special thing about AT guns is that even the unit that saw it knocked out will still often keep a contact marker there if they lose LOS. Maybe, just maybe, that's because the ammo carrier team is still alove but in a different place on the map. So if you hunt those down and take them out, maybe that's where the AT gun marker finally disappears?

[Freyberg]

On 11/16/2020 at 10:59 AM, John1966 said:

After all, that's the player's view.

Not really - it's sort of the average of all the unit views

[John1966]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think that view is actually not the player's view, but the view of the highest level of local command (regiment?).

 

3 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

Not really - it's sort of the average of all the unit views

Well you say that but any enemy unit that is currently spotted by anyone is visible (not just an icon) when you don't have a unit selected.

So that would imply it's at least the optimal view (rather than an average). You're getting the best of all the available spotting info from all units. As you're seeing different enemy units that are being seen by different units of your side (and who may not be in contact with each other), I'd say that's an omnipotent player's view.

[Freyberg]

1 hour ago, John1966 said:

So that would imply it's at least the optimal view

If an enemy unit is spotted, for sure you see it with the overall view - but if you want the best estimate of a ? unit, you need the unit with the best LOS selected. If you have no unit selected, you get a sort of average.

[John1966]

2 hours ago, Freyberg said:

but if you want the best estimate of a ? unit, you need the unit with the best LOS selected.

Really? I'll have to check because I've never noticed that.

Best LOS? Or most recent spot?

Isn't LOS a yes/no thing? You do or you don't. What's a "best" LOS?

[Freyberg]

3 hours ago, John1966 said:

What's a "best" LOS?

Like a unit that had a recent spot, a unit with binoculars and LOS to the general area, or a unit that's quite close to the enemy.

[John1966]

6 hours ago, Freyberg said:

Like a unit that had a recent spot, a unit with binoculars and LOS to the general area, or a unit that's quite close to the enemy.

Have you ever noticed a situation where an individual unit has more up to date spotting info on an enemy unit than the info you get when you have no-one selected?

I don't think I have (which is why think it's an "optimum" view rather than an "average" view).

All of this reminds why I can't be bothered with "Iron". Just seems to be more inconvenient rather than more difficult. The info is all still there.

Edited November 17, 2020 by John1966

[MOS:96B2P]

6 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Have you ever noticed a situation where an individual unit has more up to date spotting info on an enemy unit than the info you get when you have no-one selected?

I don't think I have (which is why think it's an "optimum" view rather than an "average" view).

All of this reminds why I can't be bothered with "iron". Just seems to be more inconvenient rather than more difficult. |The info is all still there.

In Iron C2 is displayed differently depending on the turn phase you are in.  There is the Orders Phase and the Action/Playback Phase. 

Skill level Iron gives a more detailed portrayal of a units C2 status during the action/playback phase in WEGO.

The difference between Elite and Iron is when you are in action/playback phase and you have a friendly unit selected.  In this situation you can only see what the selected friendly unit is aware of to include other friendly units.  This aids in the understanding of C2 and how C2, or the lack of it, plays a role in how this unit may react to different situations.  When you unselect the unit all your units are again displayed along with what information you have on OpFor units.  When you are in orders phase and you select a friendly unit all other friendly units remained displayed, just like in Elite. 

See below for a more detailed discussion. 

 

 

 

[John1966]

55 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

This aids in the understanding of C2 and how C2, or the lack of it, plays a role in how this unit may react to different situations.

That implies, in theory, that Iron is easier than Elite.

It's all getting a bit Zen. 

[MOS:96B2P]

5 minutes ago, John1966 said:

That implies, in theory, that Iron is easier than Elite.  

IMO for understanding the effects of C2 on a friendly fire team/vehicle Iron is easier then Elite.  

There are, however, some other differences. 

In October 2017 @Vanir Ausf B posted the below which I paraphrased: 

Line of sight between friendly units is strictly enforced in Iron but very forgiving in Elite. In Elite mode friendly units can maintain visual C2 when slightly out LOS of each other, such as separated by a low wall.  On Iron, darkness and weather effects that limit LOS also have an effect on visual C2.

[John1966]

2 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

In Elite mode friendly units can maintain visual C2 when slightly out LOS of each other, such as separated by a low wall.

Must admit that I'm often surprised by some of my units being in C2 when I can't possibly imagine they really would be.

Noticed one last night apparently being in visual contact at some considerable distance and, more importantly, in a wood!

[MOS:96B2P]

7 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Must admit that I'm often surprised by some of my units being in C2 when I can't possibly imagine they really would be.

Noticed one last night apparently being in visual contact at some considerable distance and, more importantly, in a wood!

Surprising, & somewhat unrealistic C2 can happen on any skill setting.  IMO it is less likely (not impossible) to happen on Iron.  

[Lethaface]

23 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think that view is actually not the player's view, but the view of the highest level of local command (regiment?). If you, the player, see something happen on screen, it means at least one of your units saw it and you're 'looking through their eyes' at that moment. But the contact marker system represents the knowledge each unit has, so on higher levels that info hasn't ben updated yet.

The weird special thing about AT guns is that even the unit that saw it knocked out will still often keep a contact marker there if they lose LOS. Maybe, just maybe, that's because the ammo carrier team is still alove but in a different place on the map. So if you hunt those down and take them out, maybe that's where the AT gun marker finally disappears?

How I understand this, is that a unit will get a contact marker if they can't actually see the KO'ed AT gun. When they have visual on it, you will see the KO'ed gun and the marker goes away. However as they move away again with the ATG out of LOS, it becomes a marker again. The marker simply indicating that an AT gun has been spotted there, irrespective of whether it is working or not. The same goes for KO'ed tanks if I'm right. 

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, John1966 said:

Have you ever noticed a situation where an individual unit has more up to date spotting info on an enemy unit than the info you get when you have no-one selected?

Yes, I am quite sure I have seen that many times.

There's also a bug where tank contacts won't get updated through C2 if the tank moves after getting spotted the first time. Adding to the confusion.

[Freyberg]

4 hours ago, John1966 said:

Have you ever noticed a situation where an individual unit has more up to date spotting info on an enemy unit than the info you get when you have no-one selected?

Yes