Peter S Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 To whom it may concern, Congratulations on your success with Combat Mission! I can say without hesitation that this one of the best, if not THE best wargame ever made! I have not enjoyed playing a WWII tactical wargame this much since G. Grigsby's Typhoon of Steel or its much ballyhooed progeny, Steel Panthers. Combat Mission is exactly the sort of boost computer wargaming needs in this era where big money publishers only have eyes for more 'plebeian pastures'. But what I really want to know is... just how many copies of CM have you actually sold so far? 5,000? 10,000? 20,000? At the current rate at which copies are flying out the door, how many do you expect to sell over the next six months? Is CM shaping up to be the word of mouth, sleeper hit of the year or simply a moderately successful title (no small feat nowadays)? I have asked this same 'numbers sold' question to developers of more mainstream titles and each time their mouths are seemingly welded shut by the suits standing behind them! Can a curious fan get a straight answer? And last but not least, is CM2 going to cover the ENTIRE Eastern front (Leningrad-Moscow-Stalingrad-Berlin, 1941-45) or just a few select campaigns and/or years? Thanks again for giving me more than my money's worth, Peter S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 BTS has stated that they're not going to release sales figures. However, they have gone out of stock twice(?), so I think they're doing just fine ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon44 Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Lets hope BTS keep kickin ass in the sales department, cause I sure as hades want to be play CM2!! Even the BTS guys need to make a buck...if for nothing else than to buy more K Rations,,, KEEP UP THE AWESOME WORK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted August 9, 2000 Share Posted August 9, 2000 Not that its anyones business but you could contact a CDROM house and inquire about the pricebreaks (they have certain volumes they give a price break on). My guess would be that they went low on the first run. Perhaps 5000, and went a little higher on the next, say 10000. So maybe at 15000 units and they are making about 25 bucks a pop.... hey you do the math. Lets all quit our jobs and make wargames!!! My wargame is at the cardboard/computer stage. All the combat resolution is done on the computer but alot of the rest is still being proved out on paper/cardboard. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So maybe at 15000 units and they are making about 25 bucks a pop<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But that came after 2 years of work with no realized income except what they had from their previous endeavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Lewis, assuming your figures are right, and they sound sensible, I don't think that is a lot of money for two guys who have proven that they can turn on a computer and two-three years work. If they had gone to Silicon Valley (or Germany for that matter, where anyone not strangling himself with a mouse-cord is a highly paid web-designer these days), they could probably have done better in financial terms. Of course, there is the factor that you do something you enjoy, and not have to do web-page design for Monsanto for a living. But that is neither here nor there. The only proven answerr to the success of CM is: much better than expected. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarnese Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Well within reason guys. Game programmers, by industry standard, are the POOREST paid programmers out there. A friend of mine could be making 2 to 3 times what he makes if he took a job offer he recieved from Microsoft for a much lower level job that he has at a game company as one of the lead programmers on a project. ------------------ Richard Arnesen Shrapnel Games www.shrapnelgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Blow Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Inovation deserves reward! There is so much slop out on the game shelves these days. I find I pay the same to them as I did to Battlefront. The more capital they achieve the more they can develop and the more developers will come on board. So what exactly has Battlefront added in the Inovation ranks: 1. Sales avoiding retail shelves and mall rats. 2. A game that plays well, and is fairly accurate in its modeling. 3. The wego system...long awaited and now here. 4. Entering a genre that is not seen as viable unless it is real-time (eck!:rolleyes or a Panzer General or Civilization clone. So congrats Big Time and Battlefront, may you earn many a ducket and may your ferrari pur! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Joe Blow, you forgot: 5. Treating their customers with respect and listen to them. 6. Fix problems. All this is no mean feat for a 2-man and a Weasel company. As far as I am concerned I hope they both get filthy rich and endow a couple of military history chairs at various universities. Or spend it on vintage AFVs. Or whatever. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter S Posted August 10, 2000 Author Share Posted August 10, 2000 I still want to know why BTS and Battlefront will not release the exact sales figures for CM. Battlefront and BTS are not publicly owned entities nor are they competing with huge publishers for retail shelf space, so where is the external pressure (if any) to be silent being exerted? If this game sells more than 20,000 copies then it will certainly garner more free press in the relevant trade and gaming magazines. Why 20,000? I remember back when Firaxis sold Antietam solely through the internet the magic sales number for it to be considered a success was 20,000 copies sold, in that 20,000 copies sold direct via the internet was equivalent to 100,000 copies sold using more conventional retail methods (100,000 being an industry-wide watermark for moderate success?). If the figures for CM are (or will be) as impressive as many of us believe it will then why keep quiet about it? In this instance making as much noise as possible only attracts more attention to the product from the press and more importantly, from PROSPECTIVE BUYERS! Just shooting my 88mm mouth off, Peter S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Peter - you have the right arguments, but the wrong conclusion It's the other way around - exactly BECAUSE they are not public, they have no pressure to release any numbers about their business (other than to the IRS that is)... The fact that a lot of people would love to know is a different matter completely... ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kford Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdarnese: Well within reason guys. Game programmers, by industry standard, are the POOREST paid programmers out there. A friend of mine could be making 2 to 3 times what he makes if he took a job offer he recieved from Microsoft for a much lower level job that he has at a game company as one of the lead programmers on a project. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I Say: Yea, but he gets to make games though. I build business systems. You tell me which one is more likely to be funner. Sometimes you pay (in the form of lower wages) to have a fun job because, all things being equal, it is in high demand. Thanks, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Peter, you mind telling us how much you make? What does that work out per hour? What do you do? Thanks! p.s. I'm pretty curious too because someday I want to start a business like this but previous posters are right. They have no obligation. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualfreak Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 There are a lot of good reasons why big time wouldent realease the game in stores. If they realeased their game in stores then for each copy of combat mission sold the store would get a percent of the prophit. And often times developers are often pressured into realeasing an unfinished game to stores so they can have it in stock for the holliday season. Big time however had all the time in the world to work on combate mission and the result was quit possibly the greatest war game ever made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 The reason I would like to know how many copies they sold is because that means a lot to the future of wargames of this type. You see, I think CM is not just a new and better widget, it is a fundamnetally different idea. I think (if it has sold enough copies) that it might just be the first in a line of competing products, the 3d wargame. If CM was successful enough, someday we might look back on CM1 the way the RTS fans look back on Dune or Warcraft. Maybe that's why they do not want to publish figures. If the "big" companies find out how much money they could have/would have/might still make on this genre, CM2 might have considerably more competition... 8-) Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: As far as I am concerned I hope they both get filthy rich and endow a couple of military history chairs at various universities. Or spend it on vintage AFVs. Or whatever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah! They could buy a Tiger I and thus bring an end to the turret frontal armor debate. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 I can think of a number of reasons why BTS would not want to post # sold (Privacy ranks pretty high up there, how many people want to post their salary on the web--which is what this would essentially equal given the fact that BTS=Steve & Charles). Also, Jeff, your point, although it seemed to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, has a point. Why present #'s to potential competitors that may allow them to produce a business plan and/or prompt them to produce a competing product? On the other hand, I can't really think of any reason that is beneficial to BTS for publishing the #'s. Although there might be some publicity benefit, I would think it would be fairly minimal in comparison to the extremely favorable reviews they've gotten. I agree with Jeff that as a consumer, I'd like to know & for others to know to prove that this is a viable way to produce the type of games I like. But I don't think that's a very important reason to BTS as a business. Also, IIRC, their business model doesn't rely on a huge initial rush and then essentially no purchases, but rather anticipates a steady stream of purchases after the intitial "bump." I'd also love to know if that turns out to be the case. My $.02. --Philistine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter S Posted August 10, 2000 Author Share Posted August 10, 2000 I never said Battlefront or BTS had an obligation to tell us how many copies they sold!!! And I certainly did not imply that these guys were withholding sales figures for fear of public recrimination in light of CM's success! I am merely curious about many units of CM have been or are projected to be sold and I think that public knowledge of these sales figures would be great for business. People love a winner, and when a game's success is made public (especially an underdog like CM) people sit up and pay attention. You see I NEED wargame publishers to make more games like Combat Mission because I simply cannot bear another heartbreak like Napoleon 1813 or Impression's cancellation of Civil War Generals 3. I may enjoy playing sims and rpgs but I NEED good 'wego' type of wargames. Did I emphasize the word NEED enough? For your information I am fully employed by those little green men that visit the Earth every now and again. If you're intereseted we have a very comprehensive abduction package. Can I interest you in a midnight abduction? Guaranteed to spook the hell out of the wife and kids and the family dog wil never hump your leg the same way again. How about a tracking crystal inserted in your temple? Maybe a 105mm HE rectal probe for that get up and go? You should see my 401K, it's out of this world... LOL! WAYYY too much free time at work today! Peter S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Joe, I must take issue with your assumption that BTS came up with the WEGO system. I believe TacOps was using this system before CM. Just a being a little nick-picky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 10, 2000 Share Posted August 10, 2000 Philistine summed up the issues quite well. We do not plan to make our sales numbers public. But I will tell you this: 1. Sales have exceeded our wildest expectations and continue to accelerate. 2. The future of CM2 (etc.) is assured. You should have no fears about that. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 I also wanted to know the sales figures to simply compare with the figures of other wargames. If however, they wish to keep it privet, that's OK with me as long as I get my grubby hands on CM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! CM2 cometh. ------------------ As I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear nothing, for I am the meanest mother*#*#** in the valley. (George S. Patton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Blow Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron Meier: Joe, I must take issue with your assumption that BTS came up with the WEGO system. I believe TacOps was using this system before CM. Just a being a little nick-picky. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Never played TacOps so you got me there. I must get out and game more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 Avalon hills Stalingrad also used a system that is in many ways similar to the WEGO system... Well, it was a hex based game, not sure if the system can really be called so similar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"I must take issue with your assumption that BTS came up with the WEGO system. I believe TacOps was using this system before CM. Just a being a little nick-picky." Never played TacOps so you got me there. I must get out and game more!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ron is correct. TacOps did use a WEGO system first. The graphics are much simpler (more of a classic wargame look), and it's modern combat. The core engine is about six years old I lthink, but it's been through a number of substantial overhauls and is still actively supported by Major H. Most importatnly it is a great game. Good enough that it's used by the USMC, Canadian and NZ armies for training. As a special bonus it's now a battlefront.com product. Check out the demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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