Gentleman Posted August 17, 2000 Share Posted August 17, 2000 Can a halftrack mortar carrier use "HQ" units to act as "spotters" in order to make indirect fire at areas out of its LOS?. By the way this is my first post so take pity..... ------------------ "What is truth when we lie to ourselves about so much, and know so little?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 17, 2000 Share Posted August 17, 2000 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 17, 2000 Share Posted August 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gentleman: Can a halftrack mortar carrier use "HQ" units to act as "spotters" in order to make indirect fire at areas out of its LOS?. By the way this is my first post so take pity..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi there, welcome to the board. To elaborate a bit on the previous post, the problem is that no vehicle is using the C&C system in operation for the infantry. I guess/hope this will be addressed sometime. Until then, buy a HT and a mortar team that you put in there and you can simulate these vehicles. They are pretty pointless under the current system. Enjoy the game. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Posted August 17, 2000 Author Share Posted August 17, 2000 Thanks for the answers. From the what was said I'd like to hope that this could be fixed in a future patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 17, 2000 Share Posted August 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: To elaborate a bit on the previous post, the problem is that no vehicle is using the C&C system in operation for the infantry. I guess/hope this will be addressed sometime. Until then, buy a HT and a mortar team that you put in there and you can simulate these vehicles. They are pretty pointless under the current system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I couldn't resist all the extra ammo that the mortar carrriers have, so I took the plunge and bought a pair of them for my last QB. Sure enough, one of them got blown up during the first turn (interestingly, by a German mortar). But the other provided useful service during the game. I suspect though, Andreas, that your advice to simply buy a mortar team and a halftrack separately is the best after all, and I may try that next time out. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybeard 101st Posted August 17, 2000 Share Posted August 17, 2000 Good idea, to put them in half track. I also noticed when playing that the halftrak mortars seemed very ineffective. Buy the time you got them sighted on a target, they would get snuffed. Next game I'll just get a HT and mortar crew. ------------------ -kill 'em all and let God sort them out- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadayne Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 I actually find them quite useful assuming you've gotten rid of the AT threat. Nothing beats a rain of mortarfire on entrenched infantry. The key IMO is to send the armour forward to flush out and neutralize enemy big guns and then bring in the mortar to wreak havoc on the infantry before your final charge. It's true, though, that until you can remove the AT guns, they're pretty useless. ------------------ "Well then private, it must be sh*t. Good thing we didn't step in it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 that'd still be cool to have an ammo vehicle you could have the mortar squad close by (if the vehicle gets hit you are toast of course) and see the figures running back and forth getting more mortar rounds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannon Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 "It's true, though, that until you can remove the AT guns, they're pretty useless." Jadayne Don't forget the deadly .50 cal too. They make very short work of any halftrack based weapons platform and its not uncommon for the Americans to have a few of these. Also there are other circumstances that can negate halftrack mounted mortars or any onboard mortar for that matter. I had a QB under heavy fog at night. Since the LOS was limited to 28 meters and the 81 has a minimum range of 100 meters, I just drove my mortar carrier off the board on the first turn. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 I think I would consider the .50 cal a light AT gun. heheh. But this goes for all support vehicals, Keep them out of the battle for the first few turns at least, depending on the type of engagment (obvioulsy if you LOS is less the the min-range for the mortar then drive it off the map) And use them to get your infantry to their objective with less casualties, by suppressing the enemy infantry. They work great at their assigned job of mobile, Direct HE support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 It's late and I'm far too lazy to check: Is an M3 and a mortar cheaper or more expensive than a dedicated mortar halftrack? It's certainly a more versatile combo. ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 It's not the direct fire AT you have to worry about. It's the enemy mortars. They will "counter-battery" your HT's and take them out. I lost 3 mortar HT's to German 81mm mortars in my last QB. The AT mortars are Very accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellros: It's not the direct fire AT you have to worry about. It's the enemy mortars. They will "counter-battery" your HT's and take them out. I lost 3 mortar HT's to German 81mm mortars in my last QB. The AT mortars are Very accurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, that's what got mine too. I'm wondering if maybe you aren't better off getting a 105 Sherman if you want an armored HE support weapon. It makes a bigger bang and is a lot tougher. The mortar carrier would make a great weapon if only it could fire indirectly. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 But a HT mortar set-up to fire indirectly will in my mind negate the advantages of putting the things in a HT in the 1st place, superior mobility. I mean think about it will have to stay rooted to the spot for the entire battle why bother sticking the thing in a half-track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madpad Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 I imagine that in real life one of these HTs would stop behind a ridge etc. and someone would get out and peek over the ridge to direct the fire in many circumstances. Much like a tank commander would do in some situations. It is a pity you can't use any SP artil crew like this or at least link them to a HQ or even a FO if one is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables: I mean think about it will have to stay rooted to the spot for the entire battle why bother sticking the thing in a half-track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It gives you the option of high mobility, I think that is what counts. On maps with bad LOS, you can move your mortars a lot faster than if they have to leg it. Also some protection of the crew. I think once they can fire ID, a combo of a HQ unit, a Jeep/Kübelwagen and a mortar HT will be quite useful. Cost: US 81mm Mortar +M3A1 HT 70 Points (alt: M3HT combo 66 points) M4A1 Mortar carrier 51 points German 81mm mortar + Sdkfz 250/1 74 Sdkfz250/2 41 Regular experience. So there is quite a price difference which probably reflects the limited usefulness and higher vulnerability of the HT mortar carriers. I guess if they solved the problem, the cost would have to go up, to reflect that. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 If Sp artillery is on the CM map they are far to close to the target to actually perform indirect fire. Think of the elevations required to hit something at sub 3000m. Where did you get the idea that Wespe, Hummel, and Priest carried out indirect fire if the target was so close? I'm asking because a number of people on the board continue to ask for this 'feature'. [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 08-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madpad: It is a pity you can't use any SP artil crew like this or at least link them to a HQ or even a FO if one is available.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now that is a request I simply fail to understand. If you want to have Wespe/Hummel ID fire, get a 105/150mm FOO. Then you just imagine a battery of Wespe SP somehere pounding OPFOR. There you have it. Can't and IMO shouldn't be able to have it both ways. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 the gun that should fire ID in CM would be the german 75 infantery gun, it can lift it's barrelt up to 72° and has a special breach to load the rounds. Donno about the 150mm inf gun though. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silencer: the gun that should fire ID in CM would be the german 75 infantery gun, it can lift it's barrelt up to 72° and has a special breach to load the rounds. Donno about the 150mm inf gun though. S.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the problem is not the technical capability, but the minimum range, and whether this did actually happen in Real Life™ at short engagement ranges, or whether it was preferred to use them for DF then. Don't have the answer to either of these though, definitely one for the FAQ. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: I think the problem is ... whether this did actually happen in Real Life™ at short engagement ranges, or whether it was preferred to use them for DF then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The short barreled 75mm IG was used both for direct and indirect fire. In a static defence it could be set up to first fire indirect at enemies far away, and when the enemy was within LOS it became direct fire. The annoyance I have with HQ spotting in CM is the extremely limited distance allowed between HQ and firer. It's OK to have the limited command radius for giving orders of movement and such, but to function as FO it should only need to be within radio range (all the map?) It would be great to have a large map set up for defence in depth, with mortars and field guns in the rear area and infantry spread out all over the place. Then every HQ on map can act as spotter for the mortars, and all company/battalion HQs can spot for the field guns (that was usually regimental assets). Perhaps it all comes down to the higher chain of command, which IMO isn't very well modeled in CM. (It's not apparent which platoon are subordinated to which CoHQ, and which CoHQ are subordinated to which Battalion HQ.) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 Buy a compagny, the compagny commander has a surprising long CC range. Really nice for spotting for on board mortars. Bertram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: The annoyance I have with HQ spotting in CM is the extremely limited distance allowed between HQ and firer. It's OK to have the limited command radius for giving orders of movement and such, but to function as FO it should only need to be within radio range (all the map?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But that would be quite unrealistic, wouldn't it? AFAIK in WW II the mortar teams did not have radios, but communication went over wire or shouting/signs, therefore the limited range is okay. I am also not sure about the statement that the chain of command is not modelled very well. I am again not sure whether making stronger C&C links between Platoon/Coy HQs would be very realistic. I see it as the platoon HQ having a close link with the squads, but any higher-ranking officer can just rally or command troops, even when not well known to them. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madpad: It is a pity you can't use any SP artil crew like this or at least link them to a HQ or even a FO if one is available.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The chief reason (as was explained by one of our resident Redlegs) you can't use onboard artillery for indirect fire is that for them to do so requires that they occupy a site that has been surveyed with aiming stakes, etc. All this takes time; they can't just pull up and start popping rounds. Mortars, on the other hand are a bit more flexible in this regard. Since their range is shorter, the magnitude of error is consequently less and corrections a bit easier to dial in. It's still the case though, I suspect, that there should be some kind of first round accuracy penalty for mortars immediately after they complete a move. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 18, 2000 Share Posted August 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables: But a HT mortar set-up to fire indirectly will in my mind negate the advantages of putting the things in a HT in the 1st place, superior mobility. I mean think about it will have to stay rooted to the spot for the entire battle why bother sticking the thing in a half-track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC, the reason for putting mortars in halftracks was for operational, not tactical mobility. It was so that they would be able to keep up with armored formations (particularly the armored infantry) and provide them with quick resonse light artillery support during exploitation maneuvres. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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