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Pls add VBIEDs and technicals to Uncons


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It's certainly enjoyable! The idea of the tank raid works   Will reply some more later, late already. Good weekend!

And turn 4  

My pleasure! I had been contemplating completing the series over the weekend, but didn't get to it. I'm still committed to doing them though. Regarding the approach line: it did look like the bes

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Oh I moticed.my first QB once I got the game I cranked out a MOUT canucks v my uncons with lethaface.

No technicals( besides firepower important for me to say laterally move teams) no VBIEDs, and no ammo cache or dump which also can be a serious issue with uncons as their ammo situation usually is hit or miss

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Yes thank you I had noticed that. I havent been able to check if either vehicle supplies ammo. Thats my other major beef with fighters. Again fine combatants, sparse ammo.  But there should be the *option* to have an ammo cache or truck for the fighter uncons with extra ammo and rpgs to simulate well armed insurgents who.ve had time to prepare or whatever.  Ammo really becomes a problem otherwise.  Its also really bad because to use an analogy - we're the US fighters in Vietnam before they got their guns back - we have no close combat mechanic so I cant even Allah Snackbar suicide attack my men into a shocked enemy hoping for some hand to hand goodness.  This would have for example, allowed me to carry the day assaulting Lethafaces strongpoints in the excellent scenario Daraya Tank Raid (Syrian Forces vs Uncons, me as uncons)

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Don't forget all my men are trained fighters ;-), they would have whooped those terrorists stepping foot in the door. That is if hand2hand was modeled, in our game my troops just stared at yours while getting executed without any ammo. And then I snackbarred them for you with some 125mm roastings 🙂

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On 1/3/2019 at 8:55 PM, Sublime said:

This would have for example, allowed me to carry the day assaulting Lethafaces strongpoints in the excellent scenario Daraya Tank Raid (Syrian Forces vs Uncons, me as uncons)

Glad you enjoying Daraya Tank Raid. Never thought it would be played H2H when creating it. How’d it pan out?

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*** SPOILERS ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well its still ongoing. Im playing as the insurgents.  I overran both strongpoints, but he managed to evacuate some men out of one of them.  I slaughtered the members of another.  He hasnt really ran into a large amount of my forces - he attacked along the railroad tracks and some amazing RPG shots by pretty suspect quality teams got a couple good kills.  Unfortunately my IED guy got killed, and 2 turns later about 2 BMPs and a T62 were parked on that little 4 patch of IEDs you put by the tracks.  Thats not happening now.

Autocannon and long range cannon fire ( interesting lines of sight from his setup zone and you have to be very careful of the balconies ) has really chewed up my Chechen fighters but Ive managed to extricate the core of the forces from the strongpoints.  He hasnt asked for a cease fire - so Im still open to fight back the regimes cowardly dogs once again.  We already ejected them from the neighborhood once now 😃

You did really good because he linked in footage of the battle in the msg when he suggested the battle and you really did well on capturing how the streets etc. look.  Interesting situation for sure.  As of now it seems hes massing his armor and slowly advancing towards the destroyed taxi barricade - dont know his intent but it seems hes gonna follow up his first rescue attack by going in now to try to wipe out my men.  Good luck with that ;)

 

I will say - he did mention he messed up initially not realizing he'd be under active attack.  Of course it may supposed to be that way, though he did reread his orders and said they gave him his judgement whether to leave or whatever.  Otherwise all Id add is in a scenario where say Im insurgents attacking a strongpoint and theres well over a dozen armored vehicles - 

given a huge part of the briefing orders and points is retaining a coherent fighting force for future operations and given though that we took some losses I killed many of the enemy dogs and extricated my brave lions - wouldnt it make sense for there to be an exit zone so you could exit troops once you felt you wanted them off the battlefield?  I guess since it was never intended H2H you.d figure someone could cease fire whenever..

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11 hours ago, Sublime said:

*** SPOILERS ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well its still ongoing. Im playing as the insurgents.  I overran both strongpoints, but he managed to evacuate some men out of one of them.  

Posssible SPOILERS for those who have not played this  

*

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Thanks fir the update and feedback mate. Really useful ta. Interesting to hear how you tackled this as the rebels. FWIW playing against the rebel AI it’s hard work to retain the strongpoints albeit doable. Shame re your IEDS. I had thought that avenue of approach was good hence the use of IEDs. Still sounds like your RPG teams might have encouraged caution. 

 

Glad I caught the atmosphere - interesting he linked to the original footage. There’s a great deal of potential armoured tactical scenarios in this type of urban fighting. I updated one old CMSF scenario to bring it more into line with this current situation in Syria. 

 

His follow up attack should be interesting. Looking forward to hearing how that pans out. 

 

Re the rebel early attack. It takes the AI a bit longer to attack, although I’m sure a human player can attack off the bat. I had thought I’d mentioned that but would have to double check the Syrian army briefing ( no access to my PC just now). 

 

Re EXIT zones. They screw the scoring I’m afraid esp when using destroy unit objectives. Fine if one side needs to exit but not so useful if not. In this specific rebel’s would just attack and run long before the Syrian commander could mobilise his force. As is he has the potential to put some real hurt on the rebels so the fight is not over yet. Now the rebel’s have to do some shoot and scoot. 

 

As said never thought it would work H2H so interesting to hear it apparently is. I’d appreciate a wee update as you go along please?

 Many thanks!

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Ok well we discussed it last night.

We strive to try to play realistically. The last turn ended with a conscript rpg7 guy scrounging his dead friends rpg and shooting 3 rounds at a t62 about 120m away. First miss by about 2m. "Now hes dead." Guys on a rooftop. Aims. Fires. Front turret hit- era goes off no penetration. "Wow good shot. Hes fu*ked now" aims. Fires. Another hit! No penetration. Yeah he died after that. Just bad luck. 

But yes on the apartment complexby the railroad tracks there was heacy fighting between combatants and regime fighters.  One team on a high roof popped up and put a rpg7 thru the front of a bmp turret. Another pulled off an amazing side shot on a t62 or. T72 shooting towards my lines through a keyhole on my side of that complex (you did well making the 1 story concrete walls. It feels real for some of the buildings and makes fighting very cat and mouse.

I hit other vehicles too - ill give you a final score. Since I just got reinforced (cool little reinforxement msg) i was loathe to CF but am HQ and 4 squads of vet fighters with no AT ability doesnt make a counterattack. We.re gonna cease fire. Ive extricated all my fighters several blocks back and even combatants too almost all would escape irl)

My SPG got wiped out but they did get one shot into a room in a stronghold - killed everyone in it. Worth it. My AT4 team just ate it though. Not worth it. My DsHK I stupidly placed on a roof. 2 outta 3 didnt make it and it mever firrd a shot. I specifically really wanted to use that on him haha.

Very good battle

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@George MC, my impressions:

Been wanting to play this map for a while so thought why not give it a spin H2H. It sure worked out!

Anyway: I decided to advance between route red and route green. Blasting the walls on the square and from there moving over route green towards the grassfield before strongpoint 1. I used a smoke screen on the building complexes between route green and red, to shield my advance. 
Had tank 1 platoon overwatching route red, the tank company HQ with some 2 BMP's overwatching from the hill behind PL Hadjoob. The rest of the vehicles dashed along towards the strongpoints. I used the BMPs to insert infantry on roofs quickly, to provide a little overwatch. 
Using area fire where I can to blast buildings with suspected enemy positions. My smoke screen actually hampered my fires though. Anyway the advance went very well until I reached the larger building complex next to the objective. I lost 1 BMP on route green to an IED I think. After inserting infantry in the building complex, I unnecessary moved one bmp a little and it was struck by an RPG just while my infantry was on the same floor as the RPG team. When the enemy infantry in the complex was suppressed I moved my Tanks and bmps on the grass field next to strongpoint one. 
The smoke was still limited where I could fire, but I suppressed all enemies I could see. 

Meanwhile the 2 platoons on the strongpoints. I left them sort of on the position you deployed them on and they came under insane fire the first turn. Some where on rooftops and floors with balconies and I suffered bad casualties. I tried to save them by moving all downstairs and or in covered spots. 1st platoon was in a bad spot though. Just before I reached them 1st platoon was fully out of ammo and basically executed by fighters rushing in. A couple of very close range 125mm dealt with those though. 1st platoon was basically eliminated bar the RPG team. The other lost it's MG and RPG team and a few casualties, but further intact. With 1st platoon smashed and 2nd platoon still surrounded and out of ammo I decided to get everyone out. The evacuation went smoothly, apart from indeed the one tank taking an rpg from a keyholed position in the side turret, right next to the ERA. Also my infantry in the building complex was unlucky with 1 squad taking several casualties when I inadvertedly moved them into a building with its facade blown out, while enemies were occupying a building diagonally just a few meters away. It was for a large part covered by a high wall, which limited my ability to take it under fire. The squad took 3 or 4 casualties before a BMP and the rest of the platoon could suppress or kill the squad. 

From there I moved back to my lines. Finally my mortar barrage came down. With a lot of tanks, BMP's and ~1.5-2 plt worth of infantry I was planning to advance over route blue and yellow. 

However, it felt a bit gamy. I employed the tank raid, reached the objectives and had my men evacuated because they took heavy losses. The briefing said to choose between occupying and falling back. Even if I still had the forces left to perhaps take the strongpoints back, I felt that it was more appopriate to cease fire.

If I have some more time over the next weeks I'll make some screens and or a movie from this battle. I really enjoyed it, playing very aggressively with the tanks and mech forces. And in my eyes, sort of successfully! I tried to copy the Syrian tactics a bit, certainly some value in those I think especially against uncons / light infantry. 

Cheers for the scenario!

 

Edit: just saw the cease fire screen: a draw: 

1275472411_cmshockforce2.exeScreenshot2019_01.06-21_30_08_55.thumb.png.ab5ccfbb0fc74b82b61ae40355179aff.png

Edited by Lethaface
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@George MC we just cease fired. A draw. My fraps isnt on this laptop but to summarize.. I ko.d 2 bmp 2s. I got the regime dogs to abandon a working T72 AV Allah Snackbar! Another BMP 2 sits stuck immobilized closer to us than friendly men. Night shall bring new terrors for the dogs!

We had 172 men ok. 60 went to paradise. 19 were wounded.

The cowardly regime forces ended with 84 men ok. 32 burn in the fires of hell and 17 shall soon die of infection inshallah.

Let me know any questions if you have any

Edited by Sublime
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On 1/6/2019 at 8:23 PM, Lethaface said:

@George MC, my impressions:

Been wanting to play this map for a while so thought why not give it a spin H2H. It sure worked out!

Anyway: I decided to advance between route red and route green. Blasting the walls on the square and from there moving over route green towards the grassfield before strongpoint 1. I used a smoke screen on the building complexes between route green and red, to shield my advance. 
Had tank 1 platoon overwatching route red, the tank company HQ with some 2 BMP's overwatching from the hill behind PL Hadjoob. The rest of the vehicles dashed along towards the strongpoints. I used the BMPs to insert infantry on roofs quickly, to provide a little overwatch. 
Using area fire where I can to blast buildings with suspected enemy positions. My smoke screen actually hampered my fires though. Anyway the advance went very well until I reached the larger building complex next to the objective. I lost 1 BMP on route green to an IED I think. After inserting infantry in the building complex, I unnecessary moved one bmp a little and it was struck by an RPG just while my infantry was on the same floor as the RPG team. When the enemy infantry in the complex was suppressed I moved my Tanks and bmps on the grass field next to strongpoint one. 
The smoke was still limited where I could fire, but I suppressed all enemies I could see. 

Meanwhile the 2 platoons on the strongpoints. I left them sort of on the position you deployed them on and they came under insane fire the first turn. Some where on rooftops and floors with balconies and I suffered bad casualties. I tried to save them by moving all downstairs and or in covered spots. 1st platoon was in a bad spot though. Just before I reached them 1st platoon was fully out of ammo and basically executed by fighters rushing in. A couple of very close range 125mm dealt with those though. 1st platoon was basically eliminated bar the RPG team. The other lost it's MG and RPG team and a few casualties, but further intact. With 1st platoon smashed and 2nd platoon still surrounded and out of ammo I decided to get everyone out. The evacuation went smoothly, apart from indeed the one tank taking an rpg from a keyholed position in the side turret, right next to the ERA. Also my infantry in the building complex was unlucky with 1 squad taking several casualties when I inadvertedly moved them into a building with its facade blown out, while enemies were occupying a building diagonally just a few meters away. It was for a large part covered by a high wall, which limited my ability to take it under fire. The squad took 3 or 4 casualties before a BMP and the rest of the platoon could suppress or kill the squad. 

From there I moved back to my lines. Finally my mortar barrage came down. With a lot of tanks, BMP's and ~1.5-2 plt worth of infantry I was planning to advance over route blue and yellow. 

However, it felt a bit gamy. I employed the tank raid, reached the objectives and had my men evacuated because they took heavy losses. The briefing said to choose between occupying and falling back. Even if I still had the forces left to perhaps take the strongpoints back, I felt that it was more appopriate to cease fire.

If I have some more time over the next weeks I'll make some screens and or a movie from this battle. I really enjoyed it, playing very aggressively with the tanks and mech forces. And in my eyes, sort of successfully! I tried to copy the Syrian tactics a bit, certainly some value in those I think especially against uncons / light infantry. 

Cheers for the scenario!

 

Edit: just saw the cease fire screen: a draw: 

1275472411_cmshockforce2.exeScreenshot2019_01.06-21_30_08_55.thumb.png.ab5ccfbb0fc74b82b61ae40355179aff.png

Excellent AAR thanks :) I’m always interested in how players tackle scenarios. When designing them I tend to play test several times running through most likely course of actions and then work the AI plan around these likely COAs. 

Great plan and it sounds like it worked in your favour. It’s interesting to note how these tank raid tactics work and how they can be effective. More so if you just don’t have the boots on the grounds to hold large urban areas. 

Although I think @sublime’s efforts exacted a small price. These RPGs only have to get lucky once!

I’d be interested in some screenshots as sounds like you guys had a blast. Thanks fir taking the time to play this and fir the AAR. Really appreciate you doing both. Many thanks!

Cheery!

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:59 PM, Sublime said:

Ok well we discussed it last night.

We strive to try to play realistically. The last turn ended with a conscript rpg7 guy scrounging his dead friends rpg and shooting 3 rounds at a t62 about 120m away. First miss by about 2m. "Now hes dead." Guys on a rooftop. Aims. Fires. Front turret hit- era goes off no penetration. "Wow good shot. Hes fu*ked now" aims. Fires. Another hit! No penetration. Yeah he died after that. Just bad luck. 

But yes on the apartment complexby the railroad tracks there was heacy fighting between combatants and regime fighters.  One team on a high roof popped up and put a rpg7 thru the front of a bmp turret. Another pulled off an amazing side shot on a t62 or. T72 shooting towards my lines through a keyhole on my side of that complex (you did well making the 1 story concrete walls. It feels real for some of the buildings and makes fighting very cat and mouse.

I hit other vehicles too - ill give you a final score. Since I just got reinforced (cool little reinforxement msg) i was loathe to CF but am HQ and 4 squads of vet fighters with no AT ability doesnt make a counterattack. We.re gonna cease fire. Ive extricated all my fighters several blocks back and even combatants too almost all would escape irl)

My SPG got wiped out but they did get one shot into a room in a stronghold - killed everyone in it. Worth it. My AT4 team just ate it though. Not worth it. My DsHK I stupidly placed on a roof. 2 outta 3 didnt make it and it mever firrd a shot. I specifically really wanted to use that on him haha.

Very good battle

Cheers @Sublime brill AAR. Pleased to hear the urban map worked out. Took a while creating it so nice to see it in action. 

Many thanks fir taking the time to play this and post your comments. I am thinking maybe tweaking this a wee bit using some of the just released urban flavour objects and maybe expanding the map a bit more. I’ll have. to see how time works out though. I’d also tweak the rebel set-up zone to limit the opening firing. Looks like that needs a wee tweak!

Thanjs again interesting stuff fir sure :)

Cheery!

 

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I dont know if they added like white trashey crap and perhaps a muddy terrain tile to simulate a trash/river sewer in the street. The video lethaface provided showed a few of the same major streets they all had that in common and Ive heard mid east vets on this message board saying the almost same stuff I am which is why Im requesting it if you notice it George, to add it. I think besides that its a wonderful map and theres not a lot you can do to improve it, unless you want to mess with the destroyed taxi barricades. And I think they should stay honestly, perhaps maybe open a third obvious route - then again or not.

There was very little I could do as lethaface said. He had to expose himself briefly but was able to pull back and go to just happily sending HE downrange f the civvies - like real life. At the end state I had several RPG29 teams but Id be sketchy taking Russian regular troops only against a armor heavy makeup (maybe not these numbers against those types in real life but diff story) I certainly held little faith in a counterattack to actually win at all. I was pretty sure Id lose my force points but pretty much destroy him if he pursued the battle to destruction. But hes right it is gamey and it causes CM battles to develop different than real life.

I was struck by a quote a Luftwaffe pilot said about attacking B17s earlier and it fit the description of trying to fight autocannons and 125mm handled right with uncons - its like trying to make love to a porcupine thats on fire.

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21 hours ago, Sublime said:

I dont know if they added like white trashey crap and perhaps a muddy terrain tile to simulate a trash/river sewer in the street. The video lethaface provided showed a few of the same major streets they all had that in common and Ive heard mid east vets on this message board saying the almost same stuff I am which is why Im requesting it if you notice it George, to add it. I think besides that its a wonderful map and theres not a lot you can do to improve it, unless you want to mess with the destroyed taxi barricades. And I think they should stay honestly, perhaps maybe open a third obvious route - then again or not.

There was very little I could do as lethaface said. He had to expose himself briefly but was able to pull back and go to just happily sending HE downrange f the civvies - like real life. At the end state I had several RPG29 teams but Id be sketchy taking Russian regular troops only against a armor heavy makeup (maybe not these numbers against those types in real life but diff story) I certainly held little faith in a counterattack to actually win at all. I was pretty sure Id lose my force points but pretty much destroy him if he pursued the battle to destruction. But hes right it is gamey and it causes CM battles to develop different than real life.

I was struck by a quote a Luftwaffe pilot said about attacking B17s earlier and it fit the description of trying to fight autocannons and 125mm handled right with uncons - its like trying to make love to a porcupine thats on fire.

I’ve got the mod so just started using it on a revised version of the map. 

I’ll also check out the avenues of approach and the rebel setup to avoid the immediate fuisilade!

Aye sounds like you guys played it fir real and you’re right unlikely both sides would have pushed on to annihilation.   

he! Like the quote!

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DERP the luftwaffe pilot quote not my sig. IGNORE THIS PART ;)

 

The fusilade part isnt really unrealistic IMO. Lethaface said he didnt read the orders right, Id perhaps just emphasize the strongholds are expecting attack any moment and already theres been rocks thrown and issues.  I see no reasom the overwhelmingly combatant force couldnt get around a really built up city overnight to attack strongholds the next day. Also what lethaface doesnt know and only people who have played me in PBEMs know is I try to go for as much shock and violence as I can. Dramatics if you will. If i attack. I attack hard. Really fast. Area fire or light fire with everyone. Blast the #&#&÷ out of it. Especially uncons vs regime troops. So I knew the compound held troops. Theres really not an obscene amount of Syrian soldiers in there so they have enough buildings and floors and the uncon lacks enough HE to just wipe out the strongholds. I couldnt see his men before we started but I placed an overwhelming majority of regular fighters to have area fires and sat there making sure I tried to literally have a squad per room area firing on the entire compound where possible. The RPGs if used overwhelmingly against the stronghold will screw the uncon player and should be left alone. In the battle i had some by the stronghold waiting for tanks but I had to cover approaches and delay the relief more importantly. I wanted an infantry on inf firefight and just like real war I wanted it as violent quick and unfair as possible. So he hit "Go" to an absolute $hitstorm of AK fire RR rounds, etc. It also seemed more chaotic because you have some interesting LoS wrinkles that allow the Syrian regime player chuck HE from far away. This potentially would 'break' the scenario IF it was uber Abrams in BS that seem to KNOW where everything is. With the current tech you have its perfect as is - he can shoot he frol far away but its almost always guesses. Second if the uncon player ISNT starting right around the compound they have almost zero chance to win if the regime player is skilled like Lethaface. You have to cover 2 approach routes from an armor heavy force with really suspect quality troops. You have the chechens but there arent many. Do you use them to delay the relief or attack the stronghold? I went for attack the stronghold - it was the objective and if I guessed wrong then Id have a squad of fighters on the wrong side of the city missing the battle! So not only did Lethaface hit GO to a hail of area fire, but I almost IMMEDIATELY started inching my teams a few tiles at a time with quick towards the compound. As he said - his men started running low on ammo and I was sort of doing the human wave thing - combatants first because theyre less valuable and can blend with the civvie pop and once Id killed/suppressed enough men in the objective I had my chechens bursting in the room gunning down the helpless enemy. Cry me a river it was glorious to me.

No I say keep the setup zones and in hindsight I think you have enough approach routes. Id pretty much keep it just add cosmetic changes.

 

P.s. yeah the more I think about it you should leave well enough alone. You did great on this it shouldnt be altered - I really enjoyed myself as red and its supposed to be Blue vs AI. (Of course maybe I just like having the bad guys I like Red in BS too) the fact it worked as a H2H says a lot. Though I WOULD put H2H only recommended for experienced players and recommend the better player take Red. ( Lethaface and I didnt do that, he just suggested the battle and I jumped on it )

Edited by Sublime
Derp
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