This sure ain't how WW2 was....

[Skorzeny]

I am no fool. In fact, I specialised in military history, particularly WW2.

My main contention has to do the way the AI in CM handles artillery and mortar support. Back in WW2, once German artillery/tank units were discovered, several minutes, even hours could pass before the Allies redirected their fire against the new threat.

For you see, as I play the Germans in CM, I find artillery to be totally useless. Why? It's quite simple. For example, in the scenario Valley of Trouble, wherever I place my 150mm artillery piece, I find that the computer has a miracle way to immediately spot it and destroy it with mortar fire or artillery. More disturbing, as I tried the Americans in the same scenario, I realised that I had only ONE mortar unit in the scenario.

I am left deeply concerned. How on earth is German artillery supposed to be of any help in this game if right after the first shot you fire, even though NO SPOTTERS ARE ON SIGHT, a rain of mortars/artillery shells transform the surroundings in a lunaresque landscape. American mortars always seem to reach everywhere; they always have their sight clear, never blocked by hills, forests...

So what you guys think about this "miracle" in CM? is there a way to "fix" this obvious bug?

Skorzeny

[Berlichtingen]

Feel free to relook at the Amis in that scenario... this time, pay attention to what you have. As I recall, there are 3 on map mortars, 2 batteries of 81s off board and 2 batteries of 105s of board. It is quite easy to position them so that at least one FO is seeing almost any point on the map.

[Mr. W W]

I haven't noticed this myself. In fact, last night I was playing a QB, and I had some known FJs in a very low area just beyond the sight of my 60mm. It took like 4 turns of scooting around to get my team into a decent position so that it would fire at all. I have also tried to target things with a 60mm and have recieved an out of range message. Could the enemy have had a hidden arty spotter with an idea of where you were? I have taken out targets I didn't know the exact location of with area target called in by a spotter. Just my thoughts. Good luck.

[Mark IV]

OK, folks, this is the guy's FIRST post here, so please chill.

Skorzeny: the 150mm is a rather large piece of hardware which is not used in CM's scale for indirect fire. It is a direct fire weapon only, IN THIS SCALE. And it stands out like a pecker on a mare as soon as it opens up, so you wanna hide that sucker till you need it, and even then make sure it has a fairly restricted FOV, 'cause what it can see, can see IT.

So it's not artillery, it's a direct fire cannon at this scale, and a large and noisy one at that. It tends to draw attention to itself.

See Berlichtingen's post for advice on the fact that Amis have a megajillion tons of arty in this particular scenario- the guns aren't on the board, only the spotters.

Scope the Readme file with the download and you'll see what we mean. This particular scenario is damned near about Ami artillery. Your spotters are the key!

[Guest ACTOR]

I would have to agree with Mark IV. Take one more look at what you've got on the board as well. It sounds like you may not have realized the kind of fire power you had as the Amis.

[Sabrewolf]

The American force has about 2 spotter on top of the hill. This spotter can target anything even those thats not in their Line of Sight but they require some time to get a targeting solution. The actual gun are NOT in the map, these are those long range artillery strike and I guess that's what bothering you. Its not a bug dont worry

[Skorzeny]

Interesting...very interesting...

First of all, thank you for these very informative posts. However, I still have 2 problems with such a theory.

I can tell the difference between American 155mm and mortar by the hole created. What concerns me is that it was clearly mortar fire (I.E. Small hole). In fact I tried to test the AI 3 times. As I put my 150mm in different locations during the setup phase, I noticed that wherever I put it (one time behind the last hill), it still managed to get it by Mortar fire. How the hell is the AI able to see it at 3 different spots in the opening round????? I don't think it makes sense (unless the AI "places" it units where they would see my gun the first round).

Any advice?

Thanks

[KiwiJoe]

That map was just a "fun" example of CM for demo purposes. The americans have a TON of atillery and mortor support so you will find it hard to place the 150mm ifg so that it doesnt die within 1-2 turns after it opens fire. But there are a couple of good spots where it can do some damage.

[Fionn]

Skorzeny,

Do you have the game? If so I'd be willing to send you a surrender file of one of my PBEM opponents.

I, as the Germans, lost 100 men. He lost 325 casualties and 233 surrendered to me.

What caused most of his casualties? Simple, artillery. It mauled his forces and pretty much rendered a couple of companies combat ineffective by the time my infantry reached them.

Also, I'll note that your WW2 military history specialisation needs a little recap. A 150mm schwere INFANTRY GUN is NOT an artillery piece. It is a direct fire gun.

Lastly, Put that 150mm gun in some woods BEHIND a hill and I bet it will survive the first round. I'm willing to bet you're putting it out in the open where it is bloody obvious. Also, that HUGE HILL on the Allied side of the map makes a GREAT spotting location for its FOs. It simply puts them there and pounds you to pieces once it sees you.

[Teutonicc]

Just a thought, do you have Fog Of War on. If it is not on then I believe the spotters can area target even if they cannot see it.

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Teutonicc

[DEF BUNGIS]

I'm just wondering if the fog of war option has anything to do with this. If your playing with out full fog of war, all units can be identified on the map. This does not mean they have LOS to each unit.

Also, wasn't this addressed in the V1.03 patch?

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Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Guest mch]

Skorzeny:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can tell the difference between American 155mm and mortar by the hole created. What concerns me is that it was clearly mortar fire (I.E. Small hole). In fact I tried to test the AI 3 times. As I put my 150mm in different locations during the setup phase, I noticed that wherever I put it (one time behind the last hill), it still managed to get it by Mortar fire. How the hell is the AI able to see it at 3 different spots in the opening round????? I don't think it makes sense (unless the AI "places" it units where they would see my gun the first round).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

quite simple,really...The Allied troops can see the gun.the Allies have a verry nice hilltop for spotting(612?..I think)from wich,

they can see almost the entire board.

also,the Allies don't have 155 in Vot.

ditto to what Fionn said about the IG,too.

{edited on account of a rather silly oversight,Oh..late night posting}

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Skorzeny]

Oh really?

You might want to know that I would not be stupid enough to stick my 150mm in the open and then complain about it getting destroyed...

Also, about the master I did on WW2. You mentioned recap. Let me help you on your recap. A 150mm infantry gun is, you proabably did not know it, classed as artillery. Can you name the other 150mm variants used by the Waffen SS in 1944?

I guess I will have to help you here. Germans used the 150mm Heavy Infantry Gun, which was the 15 cm s. I. G. 33, a standard infantry weapon, which can be used for high- or low-angle fire. The tube is monobloc, with a horizontal sliding breechlock and cartridge case obturation. The peice is mounted on a two-wheeled carriage with a box trail. This gun was issued with a stick bomb late in the war to be used against wire and minefields. This is clearly not the 150mm used in the scenario, because it can only be used against infantry.

Second, the 150 mm 15 cm K. 18 , classed in Field and Medium artillery, has the characteristics features of German "18" class field artillery design, including the recuperator above and the buffer below the tube. A cartridge case accomplishes obturation, and the unusal horizontal sliding breechblock is manually operated. Two hydropneumatic equilibrators are bolted to the tube jacket. The mount is sprung on two wheels, and has a box trail.

Last, but not least, is the 150mm 15 cm K. 39, a later version of the 15 cm K. 18, was used either as a field gun on its split-trail, rubber-tired carriage, or as a coast defense gun, with its field carriage mounted on the turntable of an emplaced platform.

Source: Michael Reynolds; Steel Inferno and Herbert Sulzbach; With the German guns: Four Years in the Western Front.

Cheers

Skorzeny

[Skorzeny]

Hmm, lots of messages while I wrote mine.

Last message I wrote was intended for Fionn...

[Guest KwazyDog]

Skorzeny, Id say that Teutonicc and DEF BUNGIS may have a good point there.

Make sure that you are playing with Fog of War set to full, and hopefully you will notice this dosnt happen. Hopefully this is the problem, because I can say i havnt seen anything like what youve got happen there either to be honest

[Skorzeny]

Thanks for the advice KwazyDog.

Altough I am almost 100% sure that the option fog of war was set to full. I must admit, however, that I am playing the demo, which might contain bugs or the likes...

Skorzeny

[Colin]

Wow Fionn has some competition...now I didn't say good competion. I put my faith behind Fionn 110%.

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

[Guest Mortiis]

No grognard here, just looked to my reference book and this is what she says

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skorzeny:

Oh really?

You might want to know that I would not be stupid enough ...

...Let me help you on your recap...

...I guess I will have to help you here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, your style needs work. Thanks for the seminar, now read the instructions.

Sorry a computer game kicked your @SS repeatedly. Have a nice day.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Skorzeny, make sure you are using version 1.02 of the demo just to be sure (it should be on the intro screen). 1.02 did fix a couple of little issues and added new explosion graphics, so if your not using it, it would be worth checking out.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Big Iron]

Quite the military historian myself.

Skorzeny is dead on with everything he stated.

The man, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is damn straight on the subject.

Dunno about the scenario and such but I have run in to similiar circumstances all through this game.

I just throw up my hands and say "It's just a videogame."

That seems to work pretty well.

Iron

[guachi]

I know Fionn says that the sIG wasn't an artillery piece, but I disagree just like I disagreed the first time this came up many months ago.

All the information I have indicates that both the 150mm and 75mm iG were both used as artillery (as well as direct fire guns). They were both used as battalion level artillery separate from divisional. Both could be elevated to 70+ degrees and the 75mm iG even had a unique breech block to allow easy loading while the barrel was elevated at high angles.

If onboard mortars can use HQs for sighting, why can't these?

Jason

[Skorzeny]

You are entirely right.

My style does indeed need some working...at least my english does.

For you see, I speak french. I have completed my studies at University Laval, in Canada. I could have written my message in my mother tongueS, but I seriously doubt you would understand even the basic grammar. So please don't hassle me with my English. I already speak/write more languages than you will ever dream to learn in your life.

I am born polish/french and I am well advanced in the use of Germans as well.

So leave my style alone, less you want use to talk styles.

Eh rappelle toi, fiston, que mieux vaut trouver un héros mort qu'un déserteur pétant de santé.

Skorzeny

[The DesertFox]

150mm Heavy Infantry Gun and sIGs in general:

IIRC it was a gamedesign decision not to give them indirect firing ability. Ask BTS about it.

Reality was that the sIG towed or armoured [bison, etc..] were Arty pieces under direct command of the regimental commander [PzGren, Inf]. These allowed him to be independ from the Division and have fast responding Artillery available for the units committed to his center of gravity [schwerpunkt]. Due to their assignment to the direct frontline troops these sIGs off course were used in dual purpose role, as were the Wespe and Hummel if necessary [although not intended to].

Due to the scale of CM [mostly 2 x 2 km maps] you only can have one thing on your map. Either the target or the Arty piece but not both. At least it isn´t possible to fire with an Arty piece on map indirectly on a target which is 1.5-2 km away in the game. I think that was the reason to modell the sIGs as units which only are able to provide direct fire.

You see IIRC it was a decision made out of gameplay reasons not because it was reality.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Simon Fox]

Let me help MarkIV with his English since what he clearly means is not "style" but "tone"

Skorzeny,

Quite what your essay on the 150mm SiG has to do with your questions I do not know but as far as I can see the answers you have recieved should be enough. If you have placed the gun where it cannot possibly be seen and it is still targetted then FOW must be off. Otherwise in VoT the US has plenty of mortars for which only the spotters require LOS some off-board, some on-board. If you fiddle around with the FOW settings and the positioning of the unit I am sure that most of your problems will go away.