**SPOILER** The Valley

[getthat_wreckoff_theroad]

Just wondered how you guys were getting on with this scenarios. I've played against the AI twice - once on each side. Managed a total victory as Axis (but I didn't really have to do much - apart from mow the allies down in the minefield). Managed a draw playing as allies (although I got all victory position I was slightly chewed in the process). You guys got any stategy tips you want to share ?

As Allies, found it was good to put spotters on hill 216(?) - although one of my shermans didnt last too long up there they managed to get a lucky hit on a pillbox (left). Central pillbox required some smoking whilst I was pushing forward and then was taken out by some heavy arty.

Flanking seemed to work well - although my left flank (cornfield) suffered heavy casualties and required support to be fed in thru the town once it had been taken. That area near the minefield was very slow going & required support from 2 Shermans before my infantry could progress any further. By the time the Panther came onto the scene hill 208? was taken and guarded with a Sherman - luckily it did not stay on the scene too long.

Compared to CE, LD and R this is seems to be a really cool map with lots of suprises and many possibilities of approach. This scenario makes me drool at the thought of the editor in the full game. I noted that this is a medium sized map - large maps will be awesome.

I also played beta CE alongside GD CE just for a comparison - the difference in graphics and AI is immense.

OK thats it - I'll get back to drooling.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

The key in Valley while playing the Allies is ARTILLERY and those Sherman 105s.

Use those spotters, especially that 105 spotter, up on that hill. It'll knock out those concrete bunkers with ease. I used the 81mm spotters to shell the wooden bunkers also. But got the kill shots with the 105 Shermans.

Use your engineer platoon to go down and clear out the mined road when there isn't so much incoming fire. They'll do it automatically when they are near the mine markers. I lost a 105 Sherman down there because another marker popped up that I wasn't aware of.

You mention the Panther. I had about five Shermans on one of those #'ed hills and as I started to move them forward down the back slope, one that was in the rear on the forward slope got a hellava shot in a weak spot on the Panther's turret and brewed that puppy. I was like, "WHOA! Damn!"

I won a Major Victory with the Amis before Turn 20. But remember, artillery is your friend.

PS. Never could get my flamethrowers up into battle without getting them killed.

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[Pitkiller]

The right side valley is the way I went. I lost a platoon on the left, but when the reinforcements showed up I put them on the left center ridge. They took out the pillboxes, then immideatly retreated when the Panther shows. Lost 2 Shermans but got the others in the right valley. Captured the ville and the pushed up the final hill on the right. I held 2 Shermans just underneath the crest in an overlaping fire field, and guess what, the Panther walks right into the trap. It was killed on about the 5th shot from the Shermans. After that the Axis surrender and I had a nice victory.

I must say that this game is what I have always hoped for; incredible job BTS. I am really feeling for the guys out there on the field getting chewed up and trying to defend a position just one more minute. And I also really like the Arty, it is loud and effective.

Again, great job BTS, let us know how we can help your marketing effort so you guys have bucko bucks for CM2.

Mike

[Guest Pham]

I've had pretty good luck with shelling the bunkers(especially the AT one) with my off map artillery until I either luck out and score a direct killing hit, or just spook the gunners inside and force them to abandon the building. Then, once the AT bunker is gone, I can bring up my Shermans with little fear and use them as infantry support instead of having them duel with the bunkers.

Once the reinforcements arrive, there's five tanks to use as mobile anti-infantry artillery until the German armor arrives and you have to concentrate on it. Fire from five tanks will pin down the enemy on either the left or right flank and allow you free movement.

BTW, how realistic is it to be able to empty the bunkers with artillery? I thought the Germans were more used to shelling than that...

[getthat_wreckoff_theroad]

Yeah my flamethrowers didn't last too long either - seemed to attract metal.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Sounds good

Just some thoughts about this scenario (and there will be plenty more ...

1. Arrival times for reinforcements are highly variable, especially for the Germans. This can have a critical effect on the game especially if the US comes in early and the Germans later.

2. If that AT Pillbox is given a chance to kill it usually will. So if great care isn't taken to silence it, uhoh In my many testings the AI knocked it out all but one time, with the lowest kills being a single Sherman 105. Boy did that take the steam out of my defense!

3. The US AI's chosen approach path really can decide the game. In many of my testings the AI just so happened to not go near the minefields and lost no time or men to them. That made things a LOT harder

4. The use of artillery by the AI is critical, though variable. When it is used to maximum advantage, it is really tough to hang in there. I had one game where the AI toasted my 150, evaporated my entire right AND left flanking platoons, and immobilized my Panther *ALL* with artillery. It also killed all my pillboxes and bunkers before my Panther arrived and manged to kill off all but one of the remaining 4 US tanks.

5. Attacking a fortified line is hard enough for a human to do, so the mere fact that the AI even presented a challenge means we did something right In fact, we weren't sure if the AI would hack such a scenario well enough to make it worthy of a demo scenario. But it does a damned fine job and gives you guys a good look at what the AI can do in a worst case scenario as the attacker.

6. If you play letting the AI set up its forces the game playes like a whole new thing (except you know exactly what each side has).

OK, I guess that is enough to get the ball rolling

Steve

[Miyamoto Musashi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

The key in Valley while playing the Allies is ARTILLERY and those Sherman 105s.

PS. Never could get my flamethrowers up into battle without getting them killed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto all OB&G said... artillery is the way to go, at least to start. I used my 105 and 81s on the large hil in the center and moved my other 105 up the left to a clear spot on that hill. After the shelling took out all the bunkers and guns, I turned the spotters to the town and laid waste to a few buildings, just in case. And the 105 Shermans are wonderful as well...

Oh, and I DID manage to get my flamethrowers up into the action... they managed to crisp up a couple of guys before they caught the dreaded "eliminated" tag...

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I brewed that AT-bunker with just a few seconds of 105 shelling. Either made the other ones Abandon or Knocked-Out with a bit of both, shelling and Sherman 105. If you can get those 105 Shermans into a good firing position on a ridge, they make good pillboxes if they get immobalized. That's what happen to me. Got one on that ridge just this side ogf the Ville, and the damned 150mm Infantry-Gun immobalized him there before I knew it. But he just sat there as a pillbox and even took out that Inf-Gun in a later turn.

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[Guest Big Time Software]

Flamethrowers were put in there to show that they aren't überweapons like in some other games In all the games I played to test this sucker, I never once used them or had them used on me.

Historically they were used once the crap around them was cleared away, or once a path to the rear of the bunker was secured. That is VERY hard to do in this scenario, especially because I gave the US force better bunker busters than a 2 man walking target In other words, the flamethowers are largely not needed.

The wooden bunkers can take hits from mortars, but a 105 round scoring a direct hit would most likely kill or wound everybody inside. Or at least damage the gun. The pillboxes are tough to knock out with 105 artillery, but it can be done. Direct fire at the slit, now that is the way to go (realistically and in the game). Problem is that to do that against the AT pillbox you have to face the deadly gun in the process.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-10-2000).]

[Speedy]

OK.. Just finished my first game of Valley (as Americans). That was an intense 2 hours I hate 75mm Pillboxes!

The Bastard knocked out 3 of my 6 tanks (and I still didn't knock it out, the crew decided to do a runner) , 2 others went to the Panther which left one little '105' to last out the game. Don't think the allies lost though.

Early in the scenario I had one of my 81's set up a smoke screen on the hill directly in front of the allied center and charged my engineer platoon into the town forcing the Germans there to retreat. This action also drew most of the German infantry from the allied right into counterattacking the town and getting chewed up by my engineers (engineers suffered about 70% casualties in all this). Also during this Arty knocked out the German field gun.

I now sent two platoons down the right flank, one squad lost 5 men to mines the rest crushed the German left and took hill 219? The wooden bunker on the German left being taken out by a bazooka (great to watch). The platoon on my left also pushed forward and pinned the German troops there.

I never managed to destroy the Panther, although I had a bazooka team (same as took out the bunker) moving into a firing position behind it when the Germans surrendered on turn 30. Allied minor victory score 62.

To sum up what won the game for me was Arty and Infantry (to be more specific the Engineers won the game for me), all the armour did was to knock out the mg pillbox and encourage the 75mm crew to run with all the non-penetrating hits.

[This message has been edited by Speedy (edited 05-10-2000).]

[JeffRaider]

I've played it twice, once as each side. As the Americans, I rolled them over in about ten minutes. Lots of arty and a couple lucky Sherm105 rounds allowed me to walk through the defenses. I lost one man to mines. I had a Sherm75, Sherm76 and a Sherm105 on the far hill, 209(?) when the Jerry reinforcments showed up. The Panther lasted about 20 seconds, taking three direct hits before brewing up.

As the Jerries, I spent nearly an hour setting up my pillboxes, cackling the whole time, ready to slaughter. I had a platoon set up on the left, one in Plomville and one on the front face of 209. ****!!! After brewing up both Sherm105s with my beautifully placed 75 Pillbox, the artillery started landing. The platoon on the left and platoon on 209 were wiped out within two minutes. One man survived on the left, two on 209. After that the Ami infantry made short work of me, and I was wiped out before turn 15. D'oh. Gonna have another go as Jerries keeping Ami arty power in mind.

[von Lucke]

Just about finished with "the Valley", and my experience with it matches most of what has been said here already, so here are a few highlights that I found entertaining:

Took out every bunker (except that damnable 75mm in the left back-field) and the 150mm gun with well placed shots from the Sherman 105's within the first couple of turns --- just lucky there.

Pushed my Engineers up the middle onto the hill overlooking the 'ville, and down into the town (with a lot of help from a major flanking maneuver with the rest of my inf on the right and liberal use of arty) just in time to meet a platoon of Germans running into town from the left --- gawd, what a slaughter! Did get to use a flamethrower on the remnants holding out in one of the buildings tho --- must say that the flame-trooper needs to know when to lay off the trigger! Just keeps on pouring it on until he's out of fuel --- and that's pretty quick!

Used a lot of smoke to cover that bunker to the left-rear, but he still got in some good shots --- that position can hit just about anywhere on the Ami advance. Best shot was the one that set the trees aflame on top of Hill 216 and sent my .50 cal and two arty spotters fleeing. Must say I found the forest-fire effects rather entertaining.

The Panther caught me completely by suprise! After the slaughter in the town, I loaded my one (relatively) untouched Engineer onto the M4/105 there and Fast-moved up the road and behind the one remaining bunker (using a lot of smoke as cover). Thought I had 'im! Then what pokes it's long snout out of the woods and smoke to my rear? Bam! No more M4, and my Engineer begging for mercy! Oh, I just love suprises!

Luckily, my reinforcements have just arrived, I've cleared the minefield on the road down the valley, and that 76mm M4 has a cat to chase down...

[Fionn]

You guys must be putting your infantry in woods or something.

In my pBEM with Matt I've survived 6 solid turns of arty on my positions and suffered less than a dozen casualties to arty throughout my entire force.

It is all a matter of placement.

[Wolfe]

*Bleeping* minefields played havoc with my tanks. Grrr. After easily spotting a minefield far out to my left (as Americans), I assumed the engineer units could easily pick out any minefields. So when my reinforcements arrived, I just mounted the infantry on the tanks, and down the road they went. Funnily enough, the 1st tank got through unscathed, but the next 75 bit the dust and the 76 right behind it was disabled, but thankfully not destroyed (it later took out the Panther).

Unfortunately for the Sherman that got through the minefield, it got wasted by a ~200m shot from a Shreck. This was all on one turn. Arrgh!

The artillery in this scenario is absolutely *devastating*. Great fun so long as you're the Americans. Though I think someone at BTS got just a wee bit carried away with the size of the expanding gas cloud that follows the destruction of a house.

BTW, the road in this scenario has a nasty left turn in it. It's the left turn (from the Ami point of view) that's a steep slope just before you turn onto the 'T' part of the road that flanks the town (IOW: the turn just before the barbed wire). All the Shermans refused to drive over it. Instead, they each stopped before the bend, turned left, drove off the road, down, and then back onto the road; avoiding the bend entirely.

Also, I don't know if the bunker placement is variable (I've only played once as Amis), but the AT bunker was placed so it was sticking diagonally in the air (it was on a slope). Rather odd.

And has the game officially gone Gold now? Should we now begin educating others around the net about the goodness that is CM?

- Chris

[edit: correcting tank name]

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 05-10-2000).]

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

Though I think someone at BTS got just a wee bit carried away with the size of the expanding gas cloud that follows the destruction of a house. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh, I thought that was awesome. Waaay better than the Beta.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, I don't know if the bunker placement is variable (I've only played once as Amis), but the AT bunker was placed so it was sticking diagonally in the air (it was on a slope). Rather odd. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are. Not only can you place the bunkers, but also the barbwire and the minefields. The first time I played the Amis, the AI placed a wooden MG bunker on a ridge with it partially hanging in the air. Knocked it out with one shot from a Sherman 75 I think? Or maybe it was a 105.

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Just finished the scenario as Allies and got drawed with the Jerries...A little late to note the power of artillery love.

Side notes :

1) My only use of flamethrowers is when a depleted squad hid inside the chapel, I use the flamethrower to "burn" it out. Hehe, the squad surrender two turns later.

2) I tried to use an engineer squad to sneak towards to Panther, immobolized and covered with smoke. However, when they come to 13m, the panther turned and wiped out the squad.

Griffin in holiday.

[Phoenix]

Re : Flamethrowers

I was DETERMINED to get my flame guy some action. I loaded him on a tank and using an 81m smoke barrage I outflanked the cement bunker on the left side. THe flame guy walked over to the bunker and fired off FOUR "rounds" at the thing. Nothing happened.

After he was done, there was no smoke, no remaining fire.

?????

Im confused. I thought that flame weapons used jellied fuel, and that it would continue to burn. THere was zero effect on the pill box. Finally I had the M4 blast it from the rear.