Tigers? No spank you!

[Ubermac]

(takes a deep breath)....

Now i'm a good sport really...i can take losses..hell i do not even have a problem with losing a battle altogether, but sometimes it just gets too much.

Like today where i had 4 Tigers positioned hull down to the enemy, in scattered trees.

Then the allied armour showed up. Around 4 m4's, 1 wolverine and i think 2 Cromwells.

Now someone, somewhere got his history wrong..i know now that the Tiger was in fact a very flimsy cardboard tank not able of hitting an elephant with a bazooka.

If you would look at the vehicles on each side and take into consideration the firing would be at aprox. 1km....what would be the outcome? Correct...all 4 tigers knocked out and no casualties whatsoever to any allied vehicle.

This seems to happen a lot in the games i play, so my question to any hardcore stats-freak is...what gives!?

4 SS veteran tigers with frontal armour towards the enemy in hull down positions vs. stationary Allied armour in the open.

Is there anyone else out there who thinks something is very wrong here?

P.S.: still hooked on CM though

[Ubermac]

Oh i forgot to mention that even though the Tiger crews had 88 guns on their tanks they weren't able to hit a tank even if their mothers in law were driving the tanks they were shooting at.

[KiwiJoe]

CM takes place during Nov 44-may 45

By that time the tiger really wasnt that much of a heavy tank anymore. Its unsloped 100mm amrour didnt give it the protection it once had with the new allied guns being used.

[Wayne]

The Tiger I tank has gotten really good press from historians in recent years so this may be why people think it is the ultimate tank of WW II. My question is, if it was so good, why did the Allies win the war? Give me a Panther any day.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Silencer]

KiwiJoe,

when the tiger is hull-down, is has approx 200mm front armour!!! (IIRC)

that's 100mm turret front and ~110mm mantle (and the mantle completely covers the entire front)

quote:

1. Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger I. Source: Jentz, Thomas L.: Germany’s Tiger Tanks. Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics and Spielberger, Walter J.: Panther & Its Variants. The mantle completely covers the turret face so some texts add the two thicknesses and cite the turret front as being 200mm thick. Jentz gives a turret mantle thickness of 120mm.

(120mm is the mantle for the late tiger)

Now, the '76 would have great difficulty to penetrate that. (I think only 17 pounder would be able to do that)

I don't know how CM models this though?(Fionn?)

Silencer

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ubermac:

(takes a deep breath)....

Now i'm a good sport really...i can take losses..hell i do not even have a problem with losing a battle altogether, but sometimes it just gets too much.

Like today where i had 4 Tigers positioned hull down to the enemy, in scattered trees....all 4 tigers knocked out and no casualties whatsoever to any allied vehicle.

This seems to happen a lot in the games i play, so my question to any hardcore stats-freak is...what gives!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[shrug] **** Happens™

You mention statistics. Most people don't really understand statistics...like me for instance. But I have had it drummed into my head that unlikely events do take place, sometimes in astonishing ways.

What are the odds that a person could flip an honest coin and have it come up heads 100 consecutive times? Slim. But it's not impossible that a person might not just do that, but do it every day of his life.

Board games with their six outcome CRTs tended to compress the possibilities by trimming off unlikely outcomes for the sake of simplicity. Once you got 6:1 odds, it was for all practical purposes an automatic victory. If you had 1:3 odds it was more or less an automatic defeat. Computer wargames, when they came along, tended to carry this over into their own design, even though the computer permits a wider range of outcomes with slimmer probabilities. My guess is this was done because people, including wargame designers, like a fair amount of predictability. But battle, especially at the nitty-gritty level portrayed by CM, just isn't that predictable.

As I pointed out above, unlikely things can happen. They *tend* not to happen very often, which is why we call them 'unlikely', but they can happen. CM just goes a bit further in modeling that reality.

On the other hand, if suddenly a real big bunch of people start turning in reports of the same unlikely thing happening most of the time, like tanks shooting at nearly unarmed crews when there is another tank in the neighborhood, then it's time to have another look at the code.

Meanwhile, you might consider trading in that tired old Tiger on a brand-new Sherman or a one-owner Cromwell with low mileage.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Flipper]

1 km? are you sure a cromwell might penetrate but knock out on all four i doubt it..that seem's to be a weak link getting penetration in like the turret an the tank being knocked out with no fire or nothing..yeah sound's like the armour rule's

are over simplified

[Guest tero]

Why buy an expensive Panther when you can do the job with a PzKw-IVG/H ?

I'm playing a ready made scen (forget the name, 60 turns, a meeting engagement with Brits as opponets) and I took out 8-10 Sherms, including 1 Firefly at 600-1000 meters with only one of my four PzKw-IV's losing its gun. I crept the Pz's in pairs in "Hunt" mode and let them mostly engage independently at first from scattered forest positions. I got some nice flanking shots as the Brit Sherms advanced along the road and then started to close in across the medows.

The Sherms DID get distracted by and they DID take out my 3 limbered 105mm howitzers and some infantry that were coming towards them to the right of the Pz's along a road from Caen. A fair trade off none the less.

[KiwiJoe]

I dont think cm models mantles from what I can tell. And the 76 with tungsten rounds can penetrate 102mm at 2k... 219mm at 500m.

[Silencer]

KiwiJoe:

I dont think cm models mantles from what I can tell.

Well, I'm thinking it too. Still, it's half the armour value, quite important I recon.

For example the last defence battle,

get your tiger in hull-down in about 600meters from where the helcats appear.

the hellcats don't have any Tungsten with them, yet still they will achieve a turret front penetration!

very strange, the 76mm shouldn't be able to penetrate the front turret at any range. (without tungsten of course)

Silencer

[Guest tero]

Freak, lucky shots through the sights ? All the time ? Agaisnt targets that historically could not be taken out head on ?

I'm starting to get a feeling that the Germans get shortchanged in this department (at least). I have also my doubts about the Stug being underrated unfairly, in favour of Allied armour.

Any idea about the extent of damage that is done to the Allied tanks as compared to the damage done to the German tanks when the mantel is penetrated ? Or any ratio of KO's/gun destroyed/other damage upon said penetration ?

[Dittohead]

Were your tanks buttoned up? If forced to button they may briefly lose LOS to target. AI Allied tanks tend to move back and forth when engaging German Tanks. They try to use their gryo's advantage in order to throw off your tanks aim.

[Zamo]

I made a big scenario with low, rolling hills, little tree cover and took eight tigers against a bunch of yank tank destroyers and 76mm shermans and, while I lost three tigers through the corse of the game, it was really a slaughter. The Ami tanks were all brewing up left and right. Not as often as I would have liked though, there was a lot of 3% to 11% shots all over. However, there were an awful lot of "sprongs" as rounds bounced off the Tigers. The key to a tigers survival is range. Up close they're coffins, at a good range, they maintain a nice edge.

Zamo

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

[shrug] **** Happens™

This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 08-02-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!! Mike has the trademark for "**** happens"

You must be filthy rich. Come to think of it, i owe you money.

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The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive

[dalem]

All-

Please bear in mind that the CM combat engine takes into account many random factors such as armor plate quality, possible weak spots, etc., when determining hit possibilities. Given the inclusion of such random factors almost any tank is at some risk from almost any weapon at almost any range.

I would suggest using the search function to hit many of the excellent threads on this topic.

-dale

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>when the tiger is hull-down, is has approx 200mm front armour!!! (IIRC)

that's 100mm turret front and ~110mm mantle (and the mantle completely covers the entire front)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is incorrect. The mantlet essentially covers an open turret front. There is a slight amount of overlap at the edges - i.e. the mantlet's area is slightly larger than the turret front opening - so for an inch or two you would get the ~200mm armor. But the vast majority of the "turret front" is only the mantlet.

Source: Tiger Tanks, by Michael Green. Page 45 cutaway illustration of Tiger I made by British technical team of a captured Tiger during the war. The turret front opening is clearly visible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jentz gives a turret mantle thickness of 120mm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in my Jentz book. I'm looking at page 136 of Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two by Chamberlain, Doyle, and Jentz. The Tiger turret front is listed as 100mm @ 8deg. Mantlet at 100-110mm at 0deg. We used the turret front value in CM, but they're about equivalent.

Charles

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamo:

I made a big scenario with low, rolling hills, little tree cover and took eight tigers against a bunch of yank tank destroyers and 76mm shermans and, while I lost three tigers through the corse of the game, it was really a slaughter. The Ami tanks were all brewing up left and right. Not as often as I would have liked though, there was a lot of 3% to 11% shots all over. However, there were an awful lot of "sprongs" as rounds bounced off the Tigers. The key to a tigers survival is range. Up close they're coffins, at a good range, they maintain a nice edge.

Zamo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one of the big problems I've had trying to figure out how to get more than an Axis Minor Victory in the Villers-Bocage - Tiger! scenario - the Tigers just don't last at close range. For that matter, they don't even last long at LONG range, it seems - I think we've all been fooled by the conventional wisdom (dating probably to the 1943 Sicily campaign, primarily) that the Tiger was invincible. I must have tried this one as the Germans a dozen times, and it seems like you can get a minor victory without even trying to attack (I know this because the first time I got Wittman immobilized at about the 0:25 mark of turn 1 ) but it's really hard to do better, because you inevitably end up with the Tigers falling under the sheer weight of shot headed their way. Remaining on the move seems to help, but not greatly - eventually you get immobilized (I have yet to have Wittman remain active and mobile until the reinforcements arrive, though once I did manage to off 8 Allied tanks before going down), and the reinforcements don't seem to have any really good options other than stand and hope to kill everything in sight.

You *DO* have to bounce a heck of a lot of shots off each Tiger before they go down, though (unless they decide it would be fun to engage some infantry that happens to be at roughly a 180 degree angle from the real threat axis ), and more than once I saw one sitting there Immobilized and Gun Destroyed.

King Tigers, now, are another story... but even so, a Sherman 76 can penetrate the front turret if he lives long enough (been there, done that).

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-Doug

[Silencer]

thanx Charles for clearing this one up.

the difference in mantle:

I thought the germans increased it by 10mm on the late tiger version?

Was there behind the mantle of the panther also no turret armour?

Silencer

[Major Tom]

We are all caught up in historical myths, that the German equipment 1944+ was invincible stuff when compared to the Allies. Sure, Tigers and Panthers were bigger and tougher than Cromwells and Shermans, but, it doesn't mean that they will always overbear them.

No armour is invincible. Hull down Tigers can be killed, even from a frontal attack given the right situation. What was the skill of your tankers? If they were poor, and the allied skill was better than the Allies could get more quality shots in, even though their shell is much smaller.

I too would rather have an equivalent point numbers of Mark IV's than that of Tiger I's. More guns, mean more chances of hitting. Even the toughest of armour gets penetrated eventually.

[Disaster@work]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by demoss:

That's one of the big problems I've had trying to figure out how to get more than an Axis Minor Victory in the Villers-Bocage - Tiger! ...I must have tried this one as the Germans a dozen times, and it seems like you can get a minor victory without even trying to attack (I know this because the first time I got Wittman immobilized at about the 0:25 mark of turn 1 ) but it's really hard to do better, because you inevitably end up with the Tigers falling under the sheer weight of shot headed their way....and the reinforcements don't seem to have any really good options other than stand and hope to kill everything in sight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had to play this 3X before I had Wittman surviving. I find that the allied reinforcements can just reach Wittman just before your reinforcements. However, if you push Wittman so he is at the head of the road where the allies are pouring out of, he will be nestled within a circle of hulks from all the softskinned and light armour he has slaughtered, making it difficult for the other allied column to find him. That is presuming a lucky shell doesn't get him from the Cromwells and Shermans milling about inside that road. Even if one immobilizes him, he is still in prime position to make his gun useful with his superior gunnery.

The second time I played this, I found that the best way to lessen the firepower of the allied reinforcing column is to quickly disperse your reinforcing tanks so that the column splits up and has to aim its guns in more than a few directions. I speed my tanks in every available direction.

This way, those that survive, including hopefully Wittman, will be able to help each other out with crossing fields of fire.

This all depends on how close the allied reinforcing column has gotten to the crossroads where your own reinforcements appear.

[Zaffod]

I feel your pain, Ubermac.. I have been in similar circumstances. Little hint.. after i played (or should say attempted) the Villars-Bocage operation I was screaming at the monitor "Whittman did it with one.. i cant f@@@ing do it with 6!!!!! what gives???!!!" One thing i think alot of us negate here is that most exchanges of fire in CM are taking place pretty damn close range and that CAN make a big difference with heavy armor.. though i must shake my head sometimes when i see tigers and panthers go down in what seems improbable shots and ranges... What grinds my gears so far is the ease in which the AI squeezes off bazooka shots from out of nowhere and manages to hit my tanks in the first or second shot. I just have trouble with this.. i dunno, it might have somthing to do with lobbing 88mm HE shots at them only to see the zooka teams quickly resond w/ another shot.. has happened more than once. I think all the AI AT teams in CM are Congrssional Medal of Honor holders or something... once in awhile is understandable.. but more often than not.. is a little much for me.. anyway, thank god CM put the save feature in between turns Nevertheless, its all great fun...

Zaff'

[kverdon]

What I think people have to remember is that the fantastic feat of Michael Whittman is just that, a fantastic feat. Alot of things went his way. If one of the Firefly tanks had been a bit quicker or if one of a hundred other variable had gone against him (I read that one tanks gunner was taking a leak when Whittmans tank drove right past its muzzle..)thing could have been different. There is just no way to re-create what happened at that battle. A human opponent and even the TAC-AI has much better control and co-ordination of his forces that the Brits did that day.

Kevin

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Not in my Jentz book. I'm looking at page 136 of Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two by Chamberlain, Doyle, and Jentz. The Tiger turret front is listed as 100mm @ 8deg. Mantlet at 100-110mm at 0deg. We used the turret front value in CM, but they're about equivalent.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jentz has since revised his data concerning the mantlet it's now 120mm @ 0^* the FT is 100mm @ 10^.

*See Jentz Thomas L. "Germany's Tiger Tanks" p.12

As an side topic that might interest some here,The Germans produced a chart for their tanks for when they were vulnerable to enemy tanks all data is @ 30^ and abstracted, this Data is not exact it was compiled as a guide for German crews to assess threat value s on Allied armor.

75mm Fireing AP-T Penetrates the Tiger1

Front:

Gun mantlet - 0ms

Turret - 0ms

Superstructure - 0ms

Hull - 0ms

Side:

Turret - 100ms

Superstructure - 100ms

Hull - 900ms

Rear:

Rear turret - 100ms

Rear hull - 0ms

76mm Fireing AP-T Penetrates the Tiger 1:

Front:

Gun mantlet - 100ms

Turret - 700ms

Superstructure - 600ms

Hull - 400ms

Side:

Turret - 1800ms

Superstructure - 1800ms

Hull - 3200ms

Rear:

Turret - 3200ms

Hull - 1700ms

The British did extensive live fire tests on 3 Tiger 1's during the war testing was conducted by fireing at a range 150ft & using varying charges to simulate all range aspects. Below is an exerpt ** concerning the Sherman's 75mm fireing M-61 AP-T

Superstructure and Turret Sides 82mm:.

All attacks failed.

Hull Side 63mm - Round 59 fired at 2000fps @ 20^ vs the hull opposite driver side,was defeated, but produced flakeing in 3 areas of the rear armor. Estimated the flakes & shot fragments would have killed driver & or wounded the co-driver.

**See Jentz Thomas L "Germany's Tiger Tanks" p.19

Anyway if anyones interested on how the Tiger 1 actualy stood up to various guns, Ie, 6Pdr, 17pdr, 25-pdr , APCBC, HE, APDS rounds etc I recommend getting the refrence I listed.

Regards, John Waters

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

I think it was a mistake to include the Villers-Bocage scenario in the game release since it raises unrealistic expectations. Kverdon is right, the historical event was a massive fluke, a juxtaposition of circumstances and terrain that is almost impossible to recreate. He happened upon the column at just the most fortuitious point at the RHQ troop (no Fireflies) and was able to attack the leading squadron from the rear in the kind of country that made it almost impossible for them to redeploy. His tank got a real battering and was lucky to survive etc etc

What seldom gets mentioned is that he returned later the same day (in a different Tiger) with three Tigers and a MkIV and had to walk out. IIRC 4 Churchills, a Firefly, and a 6pdr AT gun from the B squadron accounted for the lot while I think only the Firefly was knocked out.

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"More German prisoners were now arriving. There were well over 150 of them, with a lot more yet to be brought in. I watched them sitting in the dust, knowing they must have been in a state of shock. This was something that had never happened before. They couldn't bring themselves to admit that this was their first defeat of the war. Not only that, but it was suffered at the hands of Australian infantrymen, who were vastly outnumbered and fighting their first battle of the war."

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

Hey Simon, love your sig. Fair dinkum!