JoMac Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) Ok, just noticed that the Bar & Bren have a much slower ROF outside 100 meters (firing one-two bullet bursts about every Action Cycle), However, SMG's for most all nationalities seem to still fire several rounds in a burst every Action Cycle past same range. Now, this seems to cause some issues in Firefights...Where I believe, a Squad Armed with Bar or Bren should overcome a unit with a couple SMG's firing out past 100 meters range...I think either the SMG's ROF needs to be reduced, or increase the Bar & Bren back to where it was (and relavent weapons). I just did some quick Firefights in Open Terrain at 150 meters and having German SMG's KO'ing troops on a consistant basis (due to its ROF, and it's laser aiming that never seems to get fixed)...Vs...Bar and Bren armed Squads just taking their time shooting 1-2 rounds and causing little to no damage. Joe Edited February 4, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I figured the 1 or 2 burst shot was so the enemy couldn't discover they were really dealing with a man, with full auto BAR or Bren in the group. Have you tried closer ranges? Do they fire with more rounds? I agree, the mp-40 takes out my half track gunners and tankers out far away as well. When the mp-40 is in a command group, one commander can suppress 2 teams of 12 men with it. I actually counted the men because I was going to gripe about the same thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexUK Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I noticed brens shooting much less. These are now not offering much suppression.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, user1000 said: I figured the 1 or 2 burst shot was so the enemy couldn't discover they were really dealing with a man, with full auto BAR or Bren in the group. Have you tried closer ranges? Do they fire with more rounds? I agree, the mp-40 takes out my half track gunners and tankers out far away as well. When the mp-40 is in a command group, one commander can suppress 2 teams of 12 men with it. I actually counted the men because I was going to gripe about the same thing. Yeah, I did some testing, and V4 changed the ROF of Bar & Bren at longer ranges outside 100 meters (farther out the less ammo consumption) to single 1-2 round bursts. I don't necessarily have a problem with this as these weapons are clip fed (around 30+ rounds) and need to conserve ammo by shooting in Semi-Auto Rifle mode at longer ranges (in par with Rifle fire)...However, I still think the ROF of these weapons should be more constant out to 250 meters (not 100 meters), then reduce it's ROF to single round burst past that range. One issue is SMG's are not doing the same thing with their limited clip ammo (most being around 30+), and are still shooting several round bursts at longer ranges past 100 meters...If anything, SMG's using sub-caliber ammo should definitely be shooting far less (even more so then Bar & Bren) at these ranges. Then there is the other issue...Outside 100 meters in a Firefight a German LMG Squad will generally overmatch a U.S. Squad w/Bar or CW Squad w/Bren...The German LMG will still continue to shoot its average ROF (belt-fed), but the Bar & Bren will only shoot 1-2 single round bursts (being not much different then a Garand Semi-Auto)...However, by keeping pre V4 Bar & Bren ROF (then tweaking it so they shot the Single 1-2 shots past 250 meters) will at least be on semi equal terms with the German LMG. Edited February 5, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) ^ interesting maybe it's soldier skill level did you try green-horn vs veteran? Although skill level is not for individuals but entire squads I think. Edited February 5, 2017 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well, I used Green Troops with High Motivation & +1 Leadership in my tests...Using different quality troops or Leadership will bring in another another Variable, but not much will change in the overall effect. Actually, and another thing altogether in V4, Troops are far more brittle (or evade/fallback quicker) in a firefight compared to V3...Basically, all you have to do now is look at the enemy hard enough and they will just run away...I now have to use Vet Troops to be equal to what V3 Green Troops were...Sigh... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinaldi Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) I have found that when given a specific target order the AR or Bren gunner will 'pour it on' in my on going fighting for the AAR. As for infantry falling back under heavy fire - I'd much rather they do that than take a loss - then get rattled and fall back every time they see an enemy. That's simply the realm of opinion. Given that in my on going AAR the Germans are almost all greenhorns they had been clinging to their positions and fighting rather well; the routing ones pick better cover than they did in V3 too. Before you'd have AI just cowering in an open field, now they seek craters or new buildings. In at least a few instances I could see the AI were trying to get back into positions that were selected for them in the plan. This is all behavior I've never seen before. I do agree that sometimes they choose to fall back even though they're in the best possible cover that they could be in and are not panicking. I've seen it a handful of times, enough to annoy me. Not enough to break the game - but I hope to see a hotfix type patch soon based on this collective observation. Edited February 5, 2017 by Rinaldi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 2 hours ago, JoMc67 said: Troops are far more brittle (or evade/fallback quicker) in a firefight compared to V3...Basically, all you have to do now is look at the enemy hard enough and they will just run away... Possibly true overall, but being CM exceptions can still be encountered. Recently I was up against an MG crew that was annihilated except for one man who took over the HMG and held out for several turns, firing his gun and occasionally taking cover. And these were low-morale Conscript troops too. You never know... Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Placebo effect strikes again BAR teams (Green, High, +1) firing at German squads at 200 meters. Engine 3: 22.8 rounds per minute total (BAR and Garand) N=13, high 25, low 21 Engine 4: 21.6 rounds per minute total, N=15, high 28, low 12 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said: Placebo effect strikes again BAR teams (Green, High, +1) firing at German squads at 200 meters. Engine 3: 22.8 rounds per minute total (BAR and Garand) N=13, high 25, low 21 Engine 4: 21.6 rounds per minute total, N=15, high 28, low 12 You mean the Carbonaro Effect... Engine 4: My Test of a U.S. Inf Squad (Green, High, +1) Area-Firing 200 meters, and the Bar is getting around 13-14 rounds a minute using Single Shots. Engine 3: Bar is getting around 25 rounds a minute using 3 round Bursts. Edited February 6, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 BAR gunner only (no Garand), area fire 200m, N=10, everything else same as last test Final Blitzkrieg v3: 14 shots per minute Final Blitzkrieg v4: 13.7 shots per minute Normandy v4: 13.1 shots per minute I'm done wasting my time with this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said: BAR gunner only (no Garand), area fire 200m, N=10, everything else same as last test Final Blitzkrieg v3: 14 shots per minute Final Blitzkrieg v4: 13.7 shots per minute Normandy v4: 13.1 shots per minute I'm done wasting my time with this. Sigh... :-/ Please, BF, Fix or do Somfink... Edited February 6, 2017 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) The BAR barrel can be warped with high rate of fire same with mg-42. The soldiers knew this and fired in bursts. This guy got a medal of honor with the BAR Charles "Commando" Kelly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_E._Kelly_(soldier) Edited February 6, 2017 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 38 minutes ago, user1000 said: This guy got a medal of honor with the BAR Charles "Commando" Kelly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_E._Kelly_(soldier) And what does that have to do with anything? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, LukeFF said: And what does that have to do with anything? Just a little interesting FYI since we are on the topic of BARS. Next time I'm not gonna explain it to you... Edited February 7, 2017 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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