"Inconsistency" Mortars

[DeutschRitter]

On the first screenshot you can see that the american airborne platoon leader can call fire support from his own light mortar team in the platoon as well the light mortar teams in another platoon:

The german platoon leader cant. Why?

[A Canadian Cat]

I am going to guess that the German mortar pictured above is a 50mm mortar team.  If that is the case then it is because the German and British 50mm mortars can only be used in direct fire roles while the US 60mm and everyone's 81mm and 120mm mortars can be called indirectly.  It is how the game is designed - which is based on country doctrine.  I personally find that I use my US 60mm mortars for direct fire too.  The small mortars are more effective that way - IMHO.

[DeutschRitter]

You are right. They are 50mm mortars. Your explanation makes sense. Thank you!

[Erwin]

You should never say "Your explanation makes sense." to anyone on these forums.  We'll never hear the end of it!

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, IanL said:

I personally find that I use my US 60mm mortars for direct fire too.

And clearly the weight of opinion in these forums agrees with you. Which is why I am frankly bemused to consistently find the opposite is true. My own experience has been that just moving them into a reasonably good firing position without getting shot is a real challenge. Then there is of course a small setup delay before they can begin shooting, which usually means that they can't begin targetting until the following turn (WEGO). And as soon as they open fire, they are apt to start receiving return fire which will cause suppression or even casualties. In short, they never seem to be where I need them or able to do their job properly.

All this would be helped greatly if they could be deployed as they were in the real world, with the weapon deployed behind cover but with one or two members of the team stealthily deployed where he has eyes on the target and can signal aiming data instantly back to the gunner. Alas, in CM the gunner himself has to be able to observe the target.

What I always do is to group my mortars somewhere safe in the rear with someone who has a radio and call in fire requests from the front. Such requests are also time consuming, but on balance I find to be a better, more flexible response to the problem of getting HE where it is needed, when it is needed, in the quantities needed.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

I don't know if is my imagination or not, but the German 50mm seems to feature in this game far less often than it did the original "Beyond Overlord".

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I don't know if is my imagination or not, but the German 50mm seems to feature in this game far less often than it did the original "Beyond Overlord".

Well, for one thing, the 50mm had been largely phased out of first-line formations by the time of D-Day. Lots of 81mm and 120mm though. Maybe BFC's research had finally caught up to that fact by the time that BN was compiled.

Michael

Edited November 12, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Warts 'n' all]

56 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Well, for one thing, the 50mm had been largely phased out of first-line formations by the time of D-Day. Lots of 81mm and 120mm though. Maybe BFC's research had finally caught up to that fact by the time that BN was compiled.

Michael

Thanks, I certainly prefer your explanation to the thought that my old Limey brain was playing tricks on me.

[Erwin]

The "problem" with 60mm mortars is that they were probably rarely used as direct fire weapons at the short ranges we generally see in CM2.  It's more an issue that almost all CM2 maps are small and/or have terrain that restricts LOS to relatively (unrealistically) short ranges.  It's the same issue with using the 50 cal on a halftrack etc.  One needs to be at least 500m from an inf target to be reasonably safe from small arms.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Erwin

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

The "problem" with 60mm mortars is that they were probably rarely used as direct fire weapons at the short ranges we generally see in CM2.  It's more an issue that almost all CM2 maps are small and/or have terrain that restricts LOS to relatively (unrealistically) short ranges.  It's the same issue with using the 50 cal on a halftrack etc.  One needs to be at least 500m from an inf target to be reasonably safe from small arms.

I think that's a very good point. And it seems to me that not only mortars and MG are penalized by restricted LOS, but tank and AT weaponry as well. While a lot of fighting did take place at the ranges typical in CM—in hedgerow country for instance—a lot of it didn't. The flat, open country of northeastern France and Belgium is where you might find LOS 500-2000 meters more common. And the same is true of many parts of Eastern Europe.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

I'm not sure if it is the game per se, that is unrealistic. Perhaps designers feel that not too many of us would want to fight as the Allies in the slightly more open countryside around Caen where 88's and HMG's can fire for a KM or more.

[Erwin]

Not sure why short range would be a dominant designer "feeling".  99% of scenarios are basically short range encounters.  It would be wonderful to have more scenarios with longer range opportunities just to experience it more.  That's one of the reasons I love CMSF and would like to see a CMAK- like CM2 title in the desert.  (Many of us love playing the Axis and would love to get a chance to experiment with 88's and Nashorns etc used at the appropriate ranges.)

[Pete Wenman]

I've posted this before, but think it's worth repeating as otherwise myths can become fact !

I have 27 scenarios within CMBN with the prefix CW and I'm pretty sure all but one or two of them came with the Commonwealth module.

The average map size is 1670m x 1291m

Of the 27 maps only 3 are less than 800m on their longest side, a further 3 are exactly 800m on their longest side, with another scenario at 816m. Thereafter all the remaining 20 scenario maps are at least 1k long with 12 of them being 2k long or greater.

P

[DeutschRitter]

I have another fact I cant explain regarding mortars. As you can see on screenshot 1 my mortars have LOS though there is a hill that would block LOS. You can not see it on the screenshot but I ordered some other Infantry on that spot but it can see nothing. The tank also cant see what the mortar can see. Do they share LOS with other platoons? I ask other platoons because as you can see on screenshot 2 that his platoonleader is on the left far away:

Edited November 13, 2016 by DeutschRitter

[Cobetco]

i will have to experiment with that thought DeutschRitter, i can't remember ever seeing that before if so that would be very handy for those airborn platoons that have organic mortars. i'll have to load up a QB with some fallschirmjagers.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, DeutschRitter said:

I have another fact I cant explain regarding mortars. As you can see on screenshot 1 my mortars have LOS though there is a hill that would block LOS. You can not see it on the screenshot but I ordered some other Infantry on that spot but it can see nothing. The tank also cant see what the mortar can see. Do they share LOS with other platoons? I ask other platoons because as you can see on screenshot 2 that his platoonleader is on the left far away:

Direct fire mortars have the ability to shoot approximately 49 meters over a hill / ridge crest.  See page 68 of the Engine Manual v3.01.  Below are the results of an experiment I did some time ago.: 

I had a fire team, a mortar team and a spotter all in the same action spot facing a ridge.  The fire team could target about up to the crest at 112 meters.  The spotter, spotting for the mortar team, could target 135 meters (approximately 23 meters past the crest of the ridge).  The mortar, using direct fire, could target 161 meters (approximately 49 meters past the crest of the ridge).   

[DeutschRitter]

ah ok. thank you! another question  what are the wp grenades? i know he and smoke but what are the wp grenades? i have always wp left

Edited November 13, 2016 by DeutschRitter

[MOS:96B2P]

29 minutes ago, DeutschRitter said:

ah ok. thank you! another question  what are the wp grenades? i know he and smoke but what are the wp grenades? i have always wp left

In game they function as smoke rounds.  When the mortar is off map the WP will fire along with the HE rounds and be gone at the end of a mission.  However if the mortar is on map the WP will only fire if you request smoke.  I don't know why the difference.  

[Cobetco]

WP will also inflict casualties similar to a lower power HE round, (i think normal smoke rounds can too in game but its really rare, shell has to basically hit a guy) and i seem to recall the WP smoke will deploy quicker.

[Warts 'n' all]

WP = White Phosphorus. Nasty stuff.

[rocketman]

1 hour ago, Cobetco said:

WP will also inflict casualties similar to a lower power HE round, (i think normal smoke rounds can too in game but its really rare, shell has to basically hit a guy) and i seem to recall the WP smoke will deploy quicker.

I can't remember a single time I've seen WP cause casualties. And I tend to look close during turns what happens. Fluke?

[Michael Emrys]

5 minutes ago, rocketman said:

I can't remember a single time I've seen WP cause casualties. And I tend to look close during turns what happens. Fluke?

It has been so long since I used WP on enemy positions that I cannot recall if it caused casualties or not. However, I distinctly recall that it seemed to motivate the enemy unit to move to a different location pretty quick.

Michael

[Cobetco]

2 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

It has been so long since I used WP on enemy positions that I cannot recall if it caused casualties or not. However, I distinctly recall that it seemed to motivate the enemy unit to move to a different location pretty quick.

Michael

I thought i had better do a test, and i set up one in the editor. using a M4A3w(mid) sherman (they have 6 wp shells) and a M1A1 sherman (normal smoke shells) i set up some german platoons, the WP did cause casualties in all tests i did (3 of em) but the casualties were kinda minimal (around the level of a 37mm he round hitting the platoon)

the normal smoke rounds did cause 1 wound in 1 test, i assume the shell grazed him or something. (weird i would think any contact with any 75mm shell would be fatal)

furthermore the WP deployed smoke within the turn it was fired, it took a turn or two for the normal smoke round to produce a nice puffy cloud of cover. I also saw no difference in the behavior or units being fired at, they did not seem to think the WP smoke was dangerous, only the shell. 

HOWEVER, this was with cannon fired WP, i did not test it in mortars because i didn't know how to get only wp shells, but i doubt there is a difference, but who knows i could be very wrong

Edited November 14, 2016 by Cobetco

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Cobetco said:

<Snip> HOWEVER, this was with cannon fired WP, i did not test it in mortars because i didn't know how to get only wp shells, <Snip> 

Select smoke.

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Cobetco said:

...i would think any contact with any 75mm shell would be fatal...

That would depend on the location of the contact. A grazing strike to a limb might produce a relatively minor injury or a serious but survivable injury. A strike to the head or torso I would expect to be instantly fatal.

Michael