What triggers uncontrolled MG recoil?

[Bulletpoint]

I've been wondering for years about why sometimes, automatic weapon gunners seem to lose control of the recoil and most of the shots in a burst go high.

I understand why this could happen in real life, but what triggers it in the game?

Does it happen when troops are low quality, is it about morale state, about the terrain the shooter is on, if the target is moving too fast, etc. etc. ? I used to think it only happened when the gunner was panicked, but today I saw it happen several times when the gunner was fresh, regular quality, 'OK' morale state, in Command and Control, etc.

I also thought maybe it had to do with the bipod-MG42 not being able to deploy the bipod (due to having to fire from a crop field, so unable to find support), but today I saw it from a hedgerow position, and I assume that the bipod can be supported when firing from bocage?

In short, I'm puzzled... Maybe it's just a random thing, with higher quality troops doing it less?

[AttorneyAtWar]

Ive always seen this happen when a MG gunner no matter what his experience is firing from a crouched position, never seen it happen if he is laying down or deployed.

[Bulletpoint]

3 minutes ago, Raptorx7 said:

Ive always seen this happen when a MG gunner no matter what his experience is firing from a crouched position, never seen it happen if he is laying down or deployed.

That makes me wonder, does that mean MGs are inherently more inaccurate as well when fired from a crouching position, no matter if there is support for the gun (such as bocage or a low wall in front of the gunner)?

Edited April 4, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Pak40]

MG 42 can be fired in semi deployed status which I think would cause more erratic spread of fire.

[Bulletpoint]

28 minutes ago, Pak40 said:

MG 42 can be fired in semi deployed status which I think would cause more erratic spread of fire.

Yep, but I'm wondering why sometimes the fire is erratic and sometimes not.

[StieliAlpha]

Eh, apply real life logic and hope is has been correctly modelled into the game.

Fact is: One can't control automatic weapons for a longer time. That's why they teach you in the forces to fire "three round bursts". First round hits, second is ok, third one is off.

The less stable the platform, the worse. 

MG on a tripod should be ok. Fire undeployed and you lose stability. But then, the guy could rest the gun somewhere. On a wall, on tree, on something.

And that's where the "erratic" kicks in. Can't model everything...

[Bulletpoint]

53 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

Eh, apply real life logic and hope is has been correctly modelled into the game.

Fact is: One can't control automatic weapons for a longer time. That's why they teach you in the forces to fire "three round bursts". First round hits, second is ok, third one is off.

The less stable the platform, the worse. 

MG on a tripod should be ok. Fire undeployed and you lose stability. But then, the guy could rest the gun somewhere. On a wall, on tree, on something.

And that's where the "erratic" kicks in. Can't model everything...

I am not complaining about the game, I am just asking because I am curious. Obviously in real life, guns have recoil, and the faster they fire and the bigger they are, the harder the recoil is to control.

But as you say, real soldiers are able to control the recoil better by resting the gun on something to stabilise it. I am wondering if the game models this, or if it's basically completely random, so that as long as the MG is "semi deployed", it has a random chance to lose control of recoil.

I always assumed that placing my gunner next to a low wall, a window, or bocage would mean higher accuracy. But I don't know if I am right. Maybe the bigger accuracy only comes from being prone (deploying the bipod)? Or maybe none of this matters, and every weapon only has one accuracy setting that is used for all situations (apart from "deployed" state)?

 

[RockinHarry]

Suppression/morale effects and gunner experience obviously play a role for getting the burst tight and (halfway) accurate, but I was always in doubt about the modelling of the tripod (MG Lafette 34) version for MG34/42, which in the game performs no better than the bipod versions in this regard. It´s almost like in this infamous US propaganda video, where it was compared with the 30cal Brownings, claiming that the (tripod) MG34/42 is highly inaccurate and a big ammo waster, with just rookie GI´s beeing scared of it.

I think the game applies sort of a generic bursts cone to any the MG´s, with only the accuracy of this (inherently inacurate) burst beeing considered, meaning in best case the first bullet might be on target (remaining bullets going high) and in worst case, the whole burst goes off.

If walls and berms do support a crouching MG gunner is worth some testing, but from past experiences I think it doesn´t make a difference if a gunner crouches at a wall or not. It´s always preferable to find a place where the lMG gunner can engage from prone position, which in most cases is very difficult, or impossible.

Aiming short of a target with area fire oftenly compensates for getting most the bullets into the air, but with increased inaccuracy in width. I´d wish for a refined target area fire command offering more control for selected area. I.e a preset TA combined with area fire that does not cancel the TA and keeps area fire within selected area.

[StieliAlpha]

20 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I am not complaining about the game, I am just asking because I am curious. Obviously in real life, guns have recoil, and the faster they fire and the bigger they are, the harder the recoil is to control.

But as you say, real soldiers are able to control the recoil better by resting the gun on something to stabilise it. I am wondering if the game models this, or if it's basically completely random, so that as long as the MG is "semi deployed", it has a random chance to lose control of recoil.

I always assumed that placing my gunner next to a low wall, a window, or bocage would mean higher accuracy. But I don't know if I am right. Maybe the bigger accuracy only comes from being prone (deploying the bipod)? Or maybe none of this matters, and every weapon only has one accuracy setting that is used for all situations (apart from "deployed" state)?

 

Ah, yes yes. I misunderstood your first post.

Actually I have never seen my pixeltruppen to use walls or anything as platform. And I do not think this is modelled into the game. Think of the variety: Trees, branches, logs: What size? What sort of surface? Walls: Stone or brick? How thick? How high? Crumbling or solid? Etcetc.. I guess the "static calculation" for all possibilities goes far beyond any simulation capacity. Nope, I think this is a purely random effect, probably with an edge for "deployed and semi-deployed" firing.

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

 

If walls and berms do support a crouching MG gunner is worth some testing, but from past experiences I think it doesn´t make a difference if a gunner crouches at a wall or not. It´s always preferable to find a place where the lMG gunner can engage from prone position, which in most cases is very difficult, or impossible.

So in your experience, firing the bipod MG from prone position makes it more accurate (in the game)? If so, in rare cases it might be worth it to place the gunner outside the protection of the bocage...

[RockinHarry]

14 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

So in your experience, firing the bipod MG from prone position makes it more accurate (in the game)? If so, in rare cases it might be worth it to place the gunner outside the protection of the bocage...

Yes, in game and RL firing from prone position yields the most stable stance for catching the recoil and keeping the burst on target. In case the gunner is unsuppressed off course. Like StieliAlpha already mentioned, crouching at least "appears" to be rather random in effects of accuracy.

In bocage terrain you´d very rarely find a position for a gunner to go prone and at the usual distances between individual hedges, decreased accuracy is compensated by increased rate of fire. For gunners to lie prone, high terrain is needed with little to no obstructing terrain towards the enemy. Hard to find any such spot as said, as it only can be figured if the gunner can engage enemies from prone if he actually starts shooting. He can possibly start lying prone, but as soon as he engages enemies, he might go up to crouch.

[Bulletpoint]

8 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Yes, in game and RL firing from prone position yields the most stable stance for catching the recoil and keeping the burst on target. In case the gunner is unsuppressed off course. Like StieliAlpha already mentioned, crouching at least "appears" to be rather random in effects of accuracy.

In bocage terrain you´d very rarely find a position for a gunner to go prone and at the usual distances between individual hedges, decreased accuracy is compensated by increased rate of fire. For gunners to lie prone, high terrain is needed with little to no obstructing terrain towards the enemy. Hard to find any such spot as said, as it only can be figured if the gunner can engage enemies from prone if he actually starts shooting. He can possibly start lying prone, but as soon as he engages enemies, he might go up to crouch.

Thanks for the info. Will modify my tactics to take this into account.

[Warts 'n' all]

I tend to find that if I give a German HMG team a "Slow" command into a hedgerow AS they will then fire from a prone position as they lay on the embankment/berm whilst in the "semi-deployed" state. Likewise having them "Hunt" into that final AS they will then fire from the shoulder. I'm no expert on weapon accuracy, but it gets the job done for me.

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I tend to find that if I give a German HMG team a "Slow" command into a hedgerow AS they will then fire from a prone position as they lay on the embankment/berm whilst in the "semi-deployed" state. Likewise having them "Hunt" into that final AS they will then fire from the shoulder. I'm no expert on weapon accuracy, but it gets the job done for me.

That's odd, I find that even crawling into position, the guys end up crouching at the end anyway... But I will experiment a bit with your suggestion.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Bulletpoint