Confused about soft factors (very confused)

[markshot]

I played since 2000 starting with CMBO and only recently got a new PC + CMBN/CMFI/CMRT.

 

I don't really understand the soft factors.  You have leadership, experience, condition, and morale.  I have read the manual, searched it, searched the forums, and played around in the scenario editor (my online lab for CM games).

 

So, the two former are constants within a scenario, but the later two vary by situation?  All have text labels and the manual sort of describes what each of the four parameters impact.  However, except for leadership, I don't really get the modifiers.  Where do they come into play?  How are they set?  (you cannot set them in the scenario editor)  How do they interact with the current state of one of the three soft factors?  (Are they just simply coefficients applied as a factor to the current state?)  Do the modifiers vary dynamically like the states for condition and morale?

 

Now, I am even more confused.  I played more in the scenario editor.  It looks like the modifiers are the long-term state (applies for an entire fire fight).

 

I am so confused.  Years ago when I was trying to learn the other games, there was a member "JasonC" (who I see is still here) who would write doctoral stuff on history, military realities, and in game modeling.  Does anyone know some informative threads that demystify "soft factors", because the more I stare at them the "softer" my understanding is becoming.

 

Thank you!

[Bil Hardenberger]

Mark, you are thinking like a gamer rather than a commander.  Soft Factors <spits>

All I pay attention to is whether my units are starting to get brittle, exhausted, etc.. not much you can do about that except maybe take it easier on them and give them time to recover.  However most times I use them the same as I do when everybody is fresh, they can relax after the fight. 

You have to be aware that units as they start to degrade will be harder to control and will not stick to a position (ie. they can be easily forced to withdraw), so you cannot consistently rely on them unless you back them up with fresher units.  THAT is the art of command.

[Bulletpoint]

I don't really understand the soft factors.  You have leadership, experience, condition, and morale.  I have read the manual, searched it, searched the forums, and played around in the scenario editor (my online lab for CM games).

 

So, the two former are constants within a scenario, but the later two vary by situation?  All have text labels and the manual sort of describes what each of the four parameters impact.  However, except for leadership, I don't really get the modifiers.  Where do they come into play?  How are they set?  (you cannot set them in the scenario editor)  How do they interact with the current state of one of the three soft factors?  (Are they just simply coefficients applied as a factor to the current state?)  Do the modifiers vary dynamically like the states for condition and morale?

I think the details about this are deliberately kept murky, maybe so that people don't start "gaming the system". (which they do anyway, those who like that sort of thing).

From my understanding, the little number is a passive, constant influence. So, if your unit starts out with physical condition +1 Rested, it's just as rested as a unit that has -1 Rested, but if you run them both around for some time, the unit with -1 will get tired faster, and regain its stamina slower than the unit with +1.

Same thing with morale. The unit with +1 will take longer to turn brittle, and regain its composure faster when it gets a break from the fighting. The actual morale cycle is a bit complex, as it's not just a scale from OK to Broken. Somebody posted a chart explaining it once, but can't seem to find that post...

Anyway, I think it works a bit like this: units get shocked when they take fire, especially when they take casualties, but if you then give them a break, they sort of regain their morale, and you can send them in again. But if you keep pushing a unit too far without rest, it ends up in some morale states that are more difficult to get out of, and eventually leads to getting broken. And then the unit is not much good for the rest of the battle. 

I think the above info is not just for "gamers", but rather factors that real life commanders also take into account.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

Yes, things are murky but there has been a lot said.  I also could not find a chart that I remembered but I did write a bit about how I have observed things work: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/102770-morale-suppression-levels/#comment-1346140 That whole thread has lots of interesting stuff in it but my post pretty much describes how the morale levels work.  One thing I will add is that your men actually can recover morale if they spend time out of the fight, I have actually seen it from time to time.  I have not done any testing so I cannot speak to how easy or how quick it works but I actually have seen troops move to a better morale state over time.

Also a fun read (but not the answer you are looking for): http://community.battlefront.com/topic/119202-veterancyleadershipmoralefitness/

 

[MikeyD]

BFC explained awhile ago, I recall, that many of the soft factors are not dynamic during a battle because they're not factors that would change significantly within a <>45 minute timeframe. A bad commander will not suddenly become a good one, a unit with bad morale will not suddenly become a high morale unit. Weakened units (lack of food or sleep) will not suddenly become robust. 

A lot of the dynamic 'soft factors' are so incremental that its hard to spot. One unit recovers from being suppressed *slightly* faster than another. One units retreats under fire *slightly* sooner than the one next to it. If you put conscripts next to fanatic elites the differences become apparent. If you're comparing veterans with a +1 commander to veterans with a -1 commander then good luck spotting the differences. The effects seems to be accumulative. If you combine a mediocre commander with a green weakened unit with low morale pretty soon using them in battle becomes like trying to herd cats.

[markshot]

I remember in the last generation that hiding units helped them to recover I believe suppression and possible fatigue too faster (along with being in command).  It hiding still the thing to do for shaky units?

 

Thanks.

 

PS:  Bil H, I am not a gamey person!  I am a systems designer/developer.  If someone puts something in a UI, then there must be a reason and I WANT TO KNOW WHY!  For example, I want to know what that big red button does that says [SCRAM THE REACTOR].    {All said in good fun, Bil.  BTW, I am still not using NATO symbols.  In fact, I am playing GTOS using standard Soviet symbology.  Oh, how terrible!  I have gone over to the Reds!}

[MikeyD]

I think people might disagree on this. I suspect the reason why hiding units seem to recover faster may be bacause its harder for the enemy to spot them and shoot at them so they're left in peace. Don't take that as gospel, though 

[RockinHarry]

Not entirely sure about hiding, but I think hiding could be counter productive for shaky morale units, as it might cut LOS to other friendlies (depends on game realism mode, iron i.e) and particularly HQ´s that might help with rallying. The game manual describes it quite well with regard to morale influencing factors, like feeling isolated on the battlefield and such.

C2 page 63:

"Lastly, maintaining C2 is important for keeping unit cohesion intact.  Units tend to 
get jumpy when they don’t know what the friendly units around them are up to, or 
where their superiors are, or what the enemy might be trying to do at that moment. 
Without C2, the imagination can run a bit wild, so to speak, and the unit may 
be imagining the worst scenario.  Perhaps all its buddies withdrew and forgot to 
tell it to pull back?  Maybe the HQ was wiped out and nobody higher up knows 
about those tanks coming down the road, and therefore no help is on the way?  
Well-disciplined units hold up better under these circumstances, of course, but 
every unit has its breaking point.  If it has contact with its fellow forces and feels 
supported, things are less stressful."

Beside that, hiding doesn´t do anything to physical recovery from my experience and hiding of shaky morale units is best at safe places, with good condition friendlies around and C2 link to any applicable superior HQ. I tend to herd broken/shaky units around the Coy, or even Bn HQ, if they are near and in non hidden state.

[Combatintman]

I am so confused.  Years ago when I was trying to learn the other games, there was a member "JasonC" (who I see is still here) who would write doctoral stuff on history, military realities, and in game modeling. 

No he shouldn't.

As a starter for ten ...

My understanding of 'doctoral stuff' requires the research to be of a high standard, to be publishable and subject to peer review. The link above indicates that he's not crossed the line.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Combatintman

[markshot]

Well, I don't want to get in the middle of someone else's p*ss*ng match.

 

Yes, I apologize to use words imprecisely.  But otherwise, I want to say that I am grateful for his posts (and many other experts) through the years as I have found them thought provoking and helpful to my game play and enjoyment.  Of course, your mileage may vary.