Red Thunder Module?

[Duckman]

The now-locked road map thread had a little info about the future in the East:

We will also soon start work on the first Module for Red Thunder. The details of this are a little fuzzy at present, though it is safe to say that it will be packed full of fun. Think winter combat and the inclusion of Waffen SS and LW forces not seen in Red Thunder.

Anyone want to guess scenarios? Korsun seems to fit the bill (well known, plenty of SS), with the only problems being that it would mean going backwards from Bagration and that I can't find any Luftwaffe units in the OOB. It mostly lists divisions though, so there may have been some smaller units.

Winter battles after Bagration include the Baltic offensive, which is quite interesting as well as under-represented but also seems to lack Luftwaffers and has troublesome (from a game perspective) Estonians. We also have the Budapest offensive, which again has Axis minors. Finally there are the battles in Poland in autumn and winter 1944/45, which feature the high-profile Hermann Göring division among others (and plenty of SS).

Guesses? Preferences? More candidates?

[A Canadian Cat]

I think there are plenty of possibilities for scenarios going forward in time from Bagration that they have no need to go back.  In fact they have been pretty explicit that the next module will go forward in time.  The next Game for the East will cover the year previous to CMRT.

[Duckman]

Ok, that takes Korsun out of the picture then. Hopefully it shows up at a later date since there is potential for some really good scenarios and campaigns.

The Luftwaffe field divisions were turned over to the Heer in 1943, and thenceforth known as Feld-Divisionen (L). From browsing the list here:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/FelddivisionenL/Gliederung.htm

it seems a lot of them were in Kurland, and besides they were technically Heer troops by then, The Fallschirmjäger were never a big presence in the East (in 1944 they went to France, Holland and then the Ruhr pocket), so my money goes to (drumroll) Poland/Vistula and the Hermann Göring parapanzers!

[Sublime]

yeah they definitely arent doing korsun. simply because theyre definitely not going backwards theyve repeatedly stated theyll go forwards to berlin and at that point probably one game family a year in the east. so kursk for next actual game then mods to take it to bagration. then blau modules to kursk. then barbarossa to blau, etc.  Really I cant wait for the bitter Berlin, Kustrin, Konigsberg etc fighting.  After that Im most looking forward to seeing how they do Stalingrad and Barbarossa. Lotsa good stuff in the Barbarossa time period and after Stalingrad with Mansteins back hand blow counter offensive etc. Kursk is kind of meh to me i mean ill still buy anything Ost Front but..

Im interested to see how they handle huge offensives like Barbarossa. Bagrations one thing Barbarossas another. i almost think itll have to be Barbarossa Ag Center then North or South etc though perhaps much more likely is Barbarossa till Aug, etc.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Sublime

[Duckman]

What I find intriguing is that there is no obvious candidate for a Red Thunder module. This is unlike e.g. Kursk where Korsun would be the odds-on favourite, Barbarossa where you have the battle of Moscow, or 1942 where you have the endgame in Stalingrad including the relief effort as well as Manstein's counterattack.

So far the modules have also been rather famous battles, like Market-Garden and the Gustav Line (Cassino). Of course you could argue that Bagration itself isn't very well known outside history buff circles, making it a mute point...

We'll see, I guess. Would love a bone though. :-)

[TheVulture]

Well there are several major offensives that take place at different times or locations (against different forces) that to my mind would be obvious choices for modules. Without checking on the all the names of things, you've got the offensives in the south in Ukraine (the Lvov-Sandomierz offensive) slightly earlier than Bagration , followed on by the fighting in Romania in the autumn and winter. This would let you bring in Romanian forces, new Soviet stuff (e.g. the KV-85), and I don't know what extra German branches.

You can have proper winter fighting  in late '44 and early '45 with the Baltics and Poland, moving on to the Vistula-Oder offensive. Lots of new things could turn up there.

And then there is the final fighting through Germany culminating in the battle for Berlin. That's clearly worth a module on its own as the viciously fought final major battle of the war.

I don't know what is planned in terms of number of modules, but there is a wide range of terrains, weather, new nationalities and additional TO&Es of existing German and Soviet forces, which ought to be able to support several modules potentially, if the potential sales are there to make it worthwhile. Or the relative side-shows like Romania, Hungary and the Baltics might be commercial non-starters and be left aside, or wrapped up together with a more superficial treatment.

EDIT to add, don't forget that the first Normandy module was Commonwealth forces, which didn't change the time or place, but just added the various British and Canadian forces, plus more Germans. So it doesn't just have to be a module based around a particular battle. There are a *lot* of units that could be added on both sides, much like the Commonwealth module.

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by TheVulture

[Sublime]

^this^ i suspect we.ll see an expansion of current forces to allow battles in AG Nord and Sud to take place that couldnt be modelled currently with them adding a month or two a la Market Garden mod.

However they originally did say RT would goto end of war, that was mever said for BN. So BN ended in September 44 but if they keep the current target for RT to cover end of war and dont want to do like 5-6 modules each module by necessity will have to add at least 3-4 mnths.

 

Personally Hungary really appeals to me, the Courland, but really even when RT first came out my eyes were always on the prize of the Berlin module. End of war Germany combat has always had a special appeal to me for whatever reason. Back in the BO beta and gold demo I used to replay Riesberg endlessly to allow my kamaraden more time to flee the Red Hordes and to feel closer to the Ost Front game I truly desired.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Sublime

[Duckman]

Well there are several major offensives that take place at different times or locations (against different forces) that to my mind would be obvious choices for modules. Without checking on the all the names of things, you've got the offensives in the south in Ukraine (the Lvov-Sandomierz offensive) slightly earlier than Bagration , followed on by the fighting in Romania in the autumn and winter. This would let you bring in Romanian forces, new Soviet stuff (e.g. the KV-85), and I don't know what extra German branches.

As a huge Axis minors fan I would love Romania, but I think that will be a bit too much (and perhaps not marketable enough) for a module. The Romanians had different uniforms and a lot of unique equipment, so they would require quite a bit of work.

 

...don't forget that the first Normandy module was Commonwealth forces, which didn't change the time or place, but just added the various British and Canadian forces, plus more Germans.

I think Bagration as well pretty much followed from Normandy. I doubt they would have chosen that battle as the first Eastern module otherwise. 

 

However they originally did say RT would goto end of war, that was mever said for BN. So BN ended in September 44 but if they keep the current target for RT to cover end of war and dont want to do like 5-6 modules each module by necessity will have to add at least 3-4 mnths.

It's probably a case of another late-war East Front base game not being commercially viable, as opposed to the very marketable Bulge.

 

Personally Hungary really appeals to me, the Courland, but really even when RT first came out my eyes were always on the prize of the Berlin module. End of war Germany combat has always had a special appeal to me for whatever reason. Back in the BO beta and gold demo I used to replay Riesberg endlessly to allow my kamaraden more time to flee the Red Hordes and to feel closer to the Ost Front game I truly desired.

I'd absolutely love Hungary as well (see above), but as for Berlin (or any other big city battle, e.g. Budapest or Aachen) I don't think that's doable without a major engine update focused on the features required to support that. Think ASL with its umpteen kinds of rubble and burned out buildings. The only battle I see that could support that kind of investment would be Stalingrad.

 

Im interested to see how they handle huge offensives like Barbarossa. Bagrations one thing Barbarossas another. i almost think itll have to be Barbarossa Ag Center then North or South etc though perhaps much more likely is Barbarossa till Aug, etc.

I'm reading Robert Forczyk's Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-42 right now and the Barbarossa battles certainly can make for a good game. Operationally and strategically the Russians didn't have much of a chance, mainly because of command and logistics issues, but tactically it was a lot more even and you have plenty of battles where small-gunned panzers and panzerjägers faced T-34s and KVs, and human player could of course make matchups like the T-26 vs Pz 35(t) or Pz III a lot more even than they were historically.

And for a Barbarossa game there is of course a logical module in the battle of Moscow, one of the most famous and decisive battles in world history.

 

[Baneman]

...

Personally Hungary really appeals to me, the Courland, but really even when RT first came out my eyes were always on the prize of the Berlin module. End of war Germany combat has always had a special appeal to me for whatever reason. Back in the BO beta and gold demo I used to replay Riesberg endlessly to allow my kamaraden more time to flee the Red Hordes and to feel closer to the Ost Front game I truly desired.

I'm in almost exactly the opposite camp

I'd prefer BFC to ignore the End-of-the-war Eastern Front ( very little that's new and Berlin fighting would be difficult with the current engine as mentioned ) and move immediately the 1943 period ( obviously I'd prefer Barbarossa even more, but their system is based on 1 year at a time, which I can understand ). Much more interesting matchups on both sides.

[Sublime]

Well we all have preferences. I am obviously concerned about the current engine MOUT limitations and agree I doubt we.ll see major enough changes to really really see it done right until Stalingrad several years from now.  And even though I prefer end of war fighting I actually agree with you Baneman and wish they.d wrap RT up with modules to fill out the Ost Front summer 44 and change their minds and work 41 onwards. It.d give them more time to work on MOUT and play more to the engines strengths until Stalingrad. Though of course end of war Germany isnt simply just one battle in urban sprawl after another. As vicious as the fighting in Berlin was by the time the Red Army entered Berlin what was considered the true battle for the city had already occurred at the Seelow Heights.

Theres still lots that could be done and hopefully in the future engine updates can be fitted back onto the Berlin game...

Yeah Duckman on the one hand I could make a strong case why there would be Romanians, they did Italians and if a game covers fighting in their home country how could you not model say arrowcross units. OTOH Steve has mentioned before that as much as he liked doing the whole East Front and all the minor nations it was a big marketing mistake. fwiw.

[Duckman]

Though of course end of war Germany isnt simply just one battle in urban sprawl after another. 

True, although the urban density of Western and Central Europe almost has to be seen to be believed (I assume it surprises even many Americans) and has dictated military strategy for centuries..

You do feel for the poor Western Allies who had to slog through that. If you factor in rivers, woods, canals, and other obstacles as well there is probably a potential defensive position every 500 metres or so. No wonder the Ardennes was such an attractive idea.

 

Theres still lots that could be done and hopefully in the future engine updates can be fitted back onto the Berlin game...

Definitely. You also have big urban battles like Aachen and Cherbourg on the Western Front.

 

Yeah Duckman on the one hand I could make a strong case why there would be Romanians, they did Italians and if a game covers fighting in their home country how could you not model say arrowcross units. OTOH Steve has mentioned before that as much as he liked doing the whole East Front and all the minor nations it was a big marketing mistake. fwiw.

Didn't he even say it almost killed them? As for the Romanians, there is an interesting clue in that they included the Renault R35 in Fortress Italy. While the Italians did use about 125 of them, it was one of the main tanks of the Romanian army (along with the Skoda tanks) for a lot of the war. So while the  R35 most obviously points to France 1940, it could also point to the Romanians (at least if one indulges a little wishful thinking). 

The Eastern Axis minors didn't really have that much unique heavy equipment. They mostly used the Skoda tanks, also used by the Germans as Pz 35 and 38(t) of course and necessary for Barbarossa, and after that second-hand Pz III/IV and StuGs. The only really unique vehicles were the Hungarian Toldi and some tank destroyer conversions similar to the Marder. The R35 and the L3 tankette (used by Hungary and Bulgaria) are already in Fortress Italy. 

 

[Sublime]

He said it almost killed them to do the whole war and all the minors in BB but afaik was not referring to the Italians in FI. And though I moved and stayed in Boston since I was six until then I lived in what was then West Germany near Wiesbaden off base and remember the urban sprawl yet carefully cultivated woodish areas and pastoral hiking areas intersped with gigantic electrical tower lines near the Rhine.  Id imagine it was much the same but more wooded and blown up in WW2...

[kevinkin]

"True, although the urban density of Western and Central Europe almost has to be seen to be believed (I assume it surprises even many Americans) and has dictated military strategy for centuries..

You do feel for the poor Western Allies who had to slog through that. If you factor in rivers, woods, canals, and other obstacles as well there is probably a potential defensive position every 500 metres or so. No wonder the Ardennes was such an attractive idea."

Interesting. The times I have been to western Europe were either for business or partying so I never took notice of the terrain from a military POV. I would imagine the urban sprawl providing excellent AT nests for NATO during the Cold War. During WW2 did the terrain become more urbanized west of the Vistula compared to the the east? 

I prefer bringing CM in the east to 1941 and leaving the war's end to the - well  - end. I understand the pros and cons so ca sera sera. Tactical war gaming is mostly about the available weapons and terrain than the actual period and WW2 theater we use them in anyway. That being said, if I pass before Moscow, Kharkov, Stalingrad ... etc etc. a lot of bad karma may descend (or ascend more likely) on the powers that be.

Kevin 

   

[Los]

Chalk me up for one who grows tired of 1944 (and 45) über hardware. I'd like to see CM move to 1941 (and for the west 39-40). So any step back in years from 1944 is a step forward for me.

 

Los

Edited October 6, 2015 by Los

[kevinkin]

Come to think of it ,,, what was the last PC war game for France '40? West Front? Panzer Campaigns etc.

Kevin

[Erwin]

FWIW: on WeBoB forums it seems that the early ww2 years are very popular for the tournaments.  It is also a lot of fun playing with the (usually) ignored minor countries: Rumania, Hungary, Italy, Poland etc. (In the later years of course one can have minor countries present on both Allied and Axis sides at the same time.)

[kevinkin]

Where/what is WeBoB?

Kevin

[womble]

We Band of Brothers is an online CM (x1 and x2, which is, I imagine, how they know about early war popularity: CMBB covers the OstFront from 41 to close of play) gaming club.

 

http://www.webandofbrothers.de/

[Los]

CMAK had early war as well...Crete and all that.

 

 

Los

[Ithikial_AU]

Another one for mid-early war titles with this engine. But in the short term I understand why BF is going forward to '45.

I think the minor nations will get some love, even on the East Front. It's a bit hard to ignore them, particulalry if an earlier East Front game is made. Minor nations add variety to TOE's, which is key to the long lasting appeal of the games. My guess the first module will cover the southern offensives through Romania, Hungary and Slovakia. Then a second module will go through to Berlin. First module, maybe a bit more of more content for the Axis side, especially if the minor nations are included, but I don't think the quality of a module is necessarily dictated by having a 50/50 split between the two sides.