Apple has removed Civil War games from App Store

[kevinkin]

Perhaps too political but it is very wargame related. And given Apple's commercial influence

pretty significant. Hard core wargames have a much different distribution path - for now anyway

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

[agusto]

Fascinating - is the public display of the confederate flag such a faux pas in the US? Sounds like it' s almost as bad as running around with a nazi flag in Germany.

Edited June 25, 2015 by agusto

[sburke]

That is so friggin stupid. So what BF shouldn't sell. wW 2 titles because they have German troops. Or cmbs because there are sanctions on Russian? Sigh

Edited June 25, 2015 by sburke

[Vinnart]

Bunch of PC crap especially if a flag is being used in a historical context! Govt buildings may be one thing, but historical games? I wouldn't be surprised if ww2 games depicting the Nazi flag are next in the cross hairs. After that ww2, and civil war movies will have to delete scenes where any flag in a historical context is shown because it may offend some one. Madness!, and i have no attachment to either one of those flags.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Vinnart

[agusto]

I wouldn't be surprised if ww2 games depicting the Nazi flag are next in the cross hairs. After that ww2, and civil war movies will have to delete scenes where any flag in a historical context is shown because it may offend some one.

 

Germany forces game studios already to remove Nazi flags from the localized german versions of their games. Or to be more accurate, Germany doesnt actually force the game studios to remove the flag, games containing nazi symbols are just not allowed to be sold in stores, which leads to the game studios voluntarily removing the symbols in question. It' s still possible to get uncensored games by simply buying them online from US suppliers though.

 

According to german law, nazi symbols must not be shown in public unless for educational or documentary purposes. It' s perfectly fine to have a Nazi flag at home hanging in your bedroom, to put one on display in a history museum or to print one in a school book (given that it' s put in proper historical context).

Edited June 26, 2015 by agusto

[John Kettler]

kevinkin,

 

Apple is, IMO, playing the nanny company, as opposed to the nanny state, because the Stars and Bars have become a big deal and not just in South Carolina. Frankly, I find what Apple's doing to be both Orwellian and perverse, throwing history down the Memory Hole for the sake of PCness. History is history, however inconvenient, awkward of humiliating (insert examples here). And I find it insane that Apple would remove games depicting the Confederate flag in its proper historical context. If we're going to embark on this slippery slope, we can kiss (insert long list here), pretty much any major historical power's emblems goodbye. Let's face it. There's hardly a group on the planet that hasn't been repressed at one point or another. Using Apple's "logic," any game based on conquering falls under the rubric of prohibition, right? Then, it should also ban any game based on exploitation of non-renewable natural resources, too. Obviously, that's environmental rape. Exploration games are out--for a laundry list of reasons. Chess is warfare pure and simple, as any number of accounts will confirm. At the rate things are going, Apple may well be manning the barricades over Chutes & Ladders! I hope people blister Apple over this craven move.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[kevinkin]

http://www.wargamer.com/Article/10202

More detail on the topic ...

Kevin

[Doug Williams]

kevinkin,

 

Apple is, IMO, playing the nanny company, as opposed to the nanny state, because the Stars and Bars have become a big deal and not just in South Carolina. Frankly, I find what Apple's doing to be both Orwellian and perverse, throwing history down the Memory Hole for the sake of PCness. History is history, however inconvenient, awkward of humiliating (insert examples here). And I find it insane that Apple would remove games depicting the Confederate flag in its proper historical context. If we're going to embark on this slippery slope, we can kiss (insert long list here), pretty much any major historical power's emblems goodbye. Let's face it. There's hardly a group on the planet that hasn't been repressed at one point or another. Using Apple's "logic," any game based on conquering falls under the rubric of prohibition, right? Then, it should also ban any game based on exploitation of non-renewable natural resources, too. Obviously, that's environmental rape. Exploration games are out--for a laundry list of reasons. Chess is warfare pure and simple, as any number of accounts will confirm. At the rate things are going, Apple may well be manning the barricades over Chutes & Ladders! I hope people blister Apple over this craven move.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Well said, John. The only thing Orwell got wrong was he was about forty years off.

[Doug Williams]

Fascinating - is the public display of the confederate flag such a faux pas in the US? Sounds like it' s almost as bad as running around with a nazi flag in Germany.

It wasn't in the U.S.A. that I grew up in. We used to embrace our history, good, bad, and ugly. Now we seem to live in a PC police state.

[JonS]

You yutzes do realise that BFC publish a whole slew of games with the swastika expunged, right? How, exactly, is the accuracy of these games affected by that decision?

Edited June 27, 2015 by JonS

[agusto]

You yutzes do realise that BFC publish a whole slew of games with the swastika expunged, right?

 

No i didnt notice that. And what is a yutze please? It doesnt sound like a compliment, but i couldnt find it in any dictionary.

 

How, exactly, is the accuracy of these games affected by that decision?

 

That depends a lot on what you think the goal of the game is. If it' s only goal was to simulate tactical WW2 combat, correctly depicted uniforms wouldnt be necessary at all, the only thing that would have to be correctly modeled would be the weapon systems and the capabilities of the soldier in the uniforms. If it' s goal though is to create an immersive game environment, correctly depicted uniforms matter too.

[Doug Williams]

Yutz is an old Yiddish word for "dumbass".

 

Which is a good description of anyone who ignores history, IMO.

[kevinkin]

I think it is used sort of like calling your friend a dumbass after a few rounds.

My OP was meant to focus on the power of certain organizations to determine product design using their dominate position in distribution. I have sat with a 35 year old Walmart buyer and it was a very unprofessional exchange to put it lightly. So, other than Steam, wargames should be insulated unless hard core gamers just die off. This of course includes BFC and its titles.

BTW, Apple backed off on the G-Burg game they had in their store re: flag issue.

Kevin

[JonS]

Yutz is an old Yiddish word for "dumbass".

 

Which is a good description of anyone who ignores history, IMO.

 

Yup

 

 

 

In their study of Confederate symbols in the contemporary Southern United States, the Southern political scientists James Michael Martinez, William Donald Richardson, and Ron McNinch-Su wrote:

The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.

 

 

Southern historian Gordon Rhea further wrote in 2011 that:

It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the nero is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?

Edited June 28, 2015 by JonS

[sburke]

JonS, I am not a yutze.  I may have a doody hat, but that is a whole other subject.

 

For the topic in question, yes it absolutely makes sense that a secessionist flag that only became really popular (post civil war) during the US civil rights movement should be an object of derision and should never have been part of any governmental institution period.  That was never what anyone on this thread was objecting to.

 

Removing it off everything seems stupidly counter productive.

 

For example

Do we now turn in all existing history books because they might have it?

Do we ban it ever showing up even as we espouse free speech

Can an author that writes a book on the civil war not have a cover picture depicting confederate troops with that flag?

 

Why can it not appear in a game depicting the civil war, it's historical starting point and the origins of the whole subject?  The argument that BF had to expunge the Nazi flag originated for the same narrow minded knee jerk response doesn't lend weight.  It has had absolutely no impact apparently on the development of neo nazi movements.

 

Once you start down the road of banning icons because of political criteria it goes both ways.  Do we block the depiction of NLF flags in games on the Vietnam war?  They were the enemy.  If someone does a game fighting ISIS, do we ban depiction of that flag because it might recruit people to ISIS?

 

It isn't about "historical accuracy" per se.  It is really a question of what are you trying to accomplish and why.  Absolutely the whole issue of "southern pride" and the use of confederate regalia in US southern institutions is ridiculous.  Yes it is a guise for white supremacist BS.  But a war game that depicts a battle line of US and Confederate troops that censors the Confederate flag because of the BS that happened afterwards in the US is still silly.  The game is not about espousing the political viewpoints of that flag.  It is simply a war game simulation of battle in the 1860s.

 

Apple's response is over the top and silly.  It is an overreaction based on corporate merchandising that can't discern an issue as being worth a more introspective look versus just making sure they don't take any flack.  It does not reflect an appreciation for the significance of what is happening now nor an honest corporate decision.  Apple would have been just fine selling record albums with Confederate flags on them if no one had brought this up.

Edited June 28, 2015 by sburke

[Doug Williams]

@JonS

 

I have a great grandfather who fought in the Union army. I have at least two uncles who fought in WW2, one in the 101st Airborne. I have a father who is career U.S Air Force. I myself did some small service in a MASH unit in the 1980s. The church I attend said the pledge of allegiance to the U.S. flag today. During my short time on this earth, I have embraced the fact that all men are created equal, under God.

 

I really don't need you to try to give me some sort of lesson in history or morality.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbjmGxhBcs

[sburke]

while I think Apple has gone off the deep end regarding games, Lynyrd Skynyrd saying it is time for the south to rise again and waving the confederate flag is EXACTLY the kind of crap that I went to prison opposing.  Maybe Skynyrd thought it helped increase album sales amongst their knuckle dragging audience, but I was engaged figthing the Klan in NYC neighborhoods and saw them organizing amongst NY state prison guards.  Personally I had little regard for Skynyrd's antics in that context.  That you served in the US military does not get you a pass. Flaunting like skynyrd's of white supremacist regalia (something that was getting  black people lynched), is inexcusable. You swore to honor and uphold the US constitution

 

ARTICLE XIV.  SECTION 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States,  and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make  or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities  of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any  person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

The "south rising again" means denying this amendment and dissolution of the Union.  While I will defend the free speech rights of folks who's actions I abhor, this isn't about being PC.  This crap has no place in a government supposedly dedicated to the idea "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

Skynyrd were a bunch of racist yahoos looking for a buck with an audience they deserved.

 

That is completely different than a game company putting together a strategy game on Civil war battles.  We should ALL be able to tell the difference.

 

On that note, we are I am sure way off course and probably a few moments away from a thread lock.

Edited June 29, 2015 by sburke

[ChrisND]

OOook, and the politics thread is shut down.