tank tactic

[Panzerpanic]

Hi guys! Today this thread is a question of my part about how to play with "worst" tank against "better" one. By that i mean tank with worst optic and i could say it target more the t-64bv/bulat vs anything russian but could also be the anything russian vs m1a2 sep. The difficulty is not from the lesser charasteristic from my tank like armor or firepower wich i could work with but the great disavantages i have with the optics. Its happen a lot of time where my t-64 could be in ambush position and just getting blow up by a t-72b3 advancing in a oppen field without even being seen. On the attack... well there is a limit for the use of the cover when you want to take a positionposition. Same thing when im on the side with better optic. By exemple i did a scenario where t72b3 faced bulat an the only on tank i lost where by pure recklessness. Anyway this thread is more me asking to see what tactics you use when you are in this situation either on the attack or defence, also when the visibility is bad, what do you change in your tactic?

Thanks for the help, Panzerpanic

[Nerdwing]

Do everything you can to assure the 1v1 isnt a 1v1.  Degrade the enemy tank's systems if possible.  Concuss the crew if able.  Blow up its support assets or slow its route of advance.  Make sure as many of its systems are inoperable by the time it gets into the 1v1 that its more of a 1v0.5 at the time

[agusto]

General tips:

If your tanks are inferior, try to maneuver them as close to the enemy as possible. Avoid 1 vs 1 situations but instead seek to attack with numerical superiority: Many of your guys vs. few of the enemys - that'  s the way you win a gunfight, and it works the same way with tanks. Avoid attacks from the front, where the enemys armor is strongest, but instead try to maneuver around the enemys flanks. If a frontal 1vs 1 engagement isnt avoidable, always respect at least the most basic tactics of armoured warfare:

 

Hull down:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/f/f3/Tactics_hullDown.png

 

Soft belly:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/3/33/Tactics_crestRidge.png

 

Impact angle (i am not sure how effective this is with modern armor - this was a WW2 tactic)

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/9/9e/Tactics_angle_of_impact.png

 

Soft top:

http://wiki.gcdn.co/images/c/c3/Tactics_highGround.png

 

Tips for defending:

When on the defense, it works well to place your inferior armor in a reversed slope position with ATGMs on the counterslope. This will help you to gain and maintain fire superiority vs. the enemy tanks that come over the crest. Many of your weapons will be shooting at each tank that comes over the crest seperately - a many vs few firefight you are going to win.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_1-88_fig1.gif

 

 

Tips for attacking:

If your tanks are inferior to the enemys and you have a significant numerical superiority and troops of good morale , a mechanized wave attack might an option. It works very similar to a human wave

 

"According to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement.^[2] The goal of a human wave attack is to maneuver as many men as possible into close range, hoping that the shock from a large mass of attackers engaged in melee combat would force the enemy to disintegrate or fall back.^[2]

The human wave attack's reliance on melee combat usually makes the organization and the training of the attacking force irrelevant, but it requires either great physical courage, coercion, or esprit de corps for the attackers to advance into enemy fire.^[3] However, when matched against modern weaponry such as automatic firearms, artillery and aircraft, a human wave attack is an extremely dangerous and costly tactic in the face of devastating firepower.^[2] Thus, for a human wave attack to succeed on the modern battlefield, it is imperative for the attackers to charge into the enemy line in the shortest time and in the greatest numbers possible, so that a sufficient mass can be preserved when the attackers reach melee range.^[2]

However, this solution usually means that the attackers must sacrifice concealment and cover for numbers and speed.^[2] Because of this trade-off, human wave attacks are normally used by an attacker with a lack of tactical training, or one who lacks firepower and the ability to maneuver, but whose main advantage is motivating and controlling their men.^[4]"

 

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack

Edited June 9, 2015 by agusto

[Melchior]

Human wave attacks succeeded in Malaya and the Philippines. Once or twice in the Spanish Civil War. Largely because in these cases the defenders either did not manage their available firepower effectively or the defenders were barely armed at all.

Whatever you want to cosign this sort of thing to is up to the reader but I think it's been show their is something to be said for the tactics of the bold. Foolish and risky sure, but boldness is the sort that has sometimes had really big payouts in war.

Edited June 10, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[Stagler]

Best tactic against enemy armour?

 

• Bring a drone.
• Bring an Air Controller attached to an FO Team.
• Bring something with 152mm precision shells.
• ???
• Profit.

Ask DougWilliams/Waltz/Husker.

[Panzerpanic]

Thats all good tactic but like i say my problem dont lie in the lesse fighting capibilitie of my tanks but by the lesser spotting capabilities. Most of the time, even in a 2v1 the tank with better spotting capibility just destroy them. On other time i did a scenario where a disembark btr(ukr) elemsnt had to defend a village agaisnt a russian tactical group. I put thre atgm everywhere. Some in the protection of the forest(deeper where they still could.shoot) , 100 at gun also. Even a shturm hull down facing a good large oppen ground. The bot choose t-90am ..... i knew ill take losses and all those atgm where there more.to soften them up before they come into the village.. Finally, it end up in a one way massacre and i wasnt on the good end. Even tge shturm placed hulldown before the said large oppen ground didnt saw his demise. A hull down t-64bv would just have died the same. Sometime it become silly, i know thermal are awesome but sometime i find that the unit without them could just he blind and it would not make a difference. Like the senario i talk at the first post. In a clear beautifull day, my 72b3 just crest a hill and still in move spot behind some tree a bulat who while staying still and facing them at maybe 400-500 meter and he dont see anything. I know, thermal are powerfull but not having them dosent make you blind!

[Panzerpanic]

Best tactic against enemy armour?

• Bring a drone.
• Bring an Air Controller attached to an FO Team.
• Bring something with 152mm precision shells.
• ???
• Profit.

Ask DougWilliams/Waltz/Husker.

Haha thats for sure! I always try to use those round to good end! Also a hind or two always help!

[Melchior]

Thats all good tactic but like i say my problem dont lie in the lesse fighting capibilitie of my tanks but by the lesser spotting capabilities. Most of the time, even in a 2v1 the tank with better spotting capibility just destroy them. On other time i did a scenario where a disembark btr(ukr) elemsnt had to defend a village agaisnt a russian tactical group. I put thre atgm everywhere. Some in the protection of the forest(deeper where they still could.shoot) , 100 at gun also. Even a shturm hull down facing a good large oppen ground. The bot choose t-90am ..... i knew ill take losses and all those atgm where there more.to soften them up before they come into the village.. Finally, it end up in a one way massacre and i wasnt on the good end. Even tge shturm placed hulldown before the said large oppen ground didnt saw his demise. A hull down t-64bv would just have died the same. Sometime it become silly, i know thermal are awesome but sometime i find that the unit without them could just he blind and it would not make a difference. Like the senario i talk at the first post. In a clear beautifull day, my 72b3 just crest a hill and still in move spot behind some tree a bulat who while staying still and facing them at maybe 400-500 meter and he dont see anything. I know, thermal are powerfull but not having them dosent make you blind!

It sounds to me like the game you were looking for was Steel Beasts.

[Kieme(ITA)]

I got only bad experiences with the T-64 and Bulat, their spotting ability has Always been terrible.

[Panzerpanic]

It sounds to me like the game you were looking for was Steel Beasts.

Pretty sure it was cmbs. My steel beats icon on the deskstop is at the right of the cmbs one indeed but i dont often misclick

[agusto]

I got only bad experiences with the T-64 and Bulat, their spotting ability has Always been terrible.

 

The Bulat looks really cool though. I often buy them in QBs

[Melchior]

Pretty sure it was cmbs. My steel beats icon on the deskstop is at the right of the cmbs one indeed but i dont often misclick

If you insist. All I can say is don't play the game believing you're entitled to some kind of result or it'll never be very satisfying. Remember the enemy will probably have their own wtf moments too. You're just not inclined to perceive them because our minds tend to focus on our own problems.

I got only bad experiences with the T-64 and Bulat, their spotting ability has Always been terrible.

I have no idea why a greenhouse like the Bulat would have poor situational awareness. The T-64 sort of doesn't surprise me though. That tank is a relic of the Cold War and crew optics are probably somewhere between a cardboard tube and a pair of butter smeared swimming goggles. But hey, the gunner can see the blobs at night now too!

[Stagler]

Haha thats for sure! I always try to use those round to good end! Also a hind or two always help!

 

On the basic bn tac group orbat, its much cheaper to bring 2x3 2S19M2 batteries to the fight.

[sburke]

I got only bad experiences with the T-64 and Bulat, their spotting ability has Always been terrible.

What my Bulat did to a T72 and a BMP in one shot.  The Bulat and T72 traded a couple rounds.  The T72 backed out of sight behind the BMP... no problem.

 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

I have no idea why a greenhouse like the Bulat would have poor situational awareness. The T-64 sort of doesn't surprise me though. That tank is a relic of the Cold War and crew optics are probably somewhere between a cardboard tube and a pair of butter smeared swimming goggles. But hey, the gunner can see the blobs at night now too! 

 

Ditto.  I don't doubt that the Bulat is working as intended simply because it seems like Battlefront wouldn't totally mess up the optics like that....but I'd like to hear more about the system and why it's assessed to have poor optics.

 

T-64BV though, yeah not surprised.  

[sburke]

Just curious, how was the Bulat assessed as having poor situational awareness? Is that based on actual testing in CM or simply general impressions. I ask as in the situation above that same Bulat went after that Russian tank twice and in both instances got off the first shot before the T 72 had noted it's presence. It was more nail bitingly frustrating it took so long to get the kill and it was sheer luck when it did.

I do not have a whole lot of time in game with tank on tank action to feel I can really make an assessment yet on it's relative capabilities.

[agusto]

@ sburke:

My "gut feeling" is that the T-72B3 and the BM Bulat are pretty much equal in terms of spotting. The base model of the T-72B3, the T-72 which was introduced in 1972, and the base model of the BM Bulat, the T-64 which was introduced in 1967, are only 5 years apart in terms of technological development. The original T-72 was actually just a derivate of the T-64. In fact the T-72 was initially just planned as a cheap replacement for aging T-55s and T-62s while the T-64s were supposed to take on NATOs modern MBTs of the time.

 

Of course the Bulat and the T-72B3 carry much more modern equipment than their cold war predecessors, but they are still closely related. Maybe they arent brothers, but they could be cousins.

Edited June 10, 2015 by agusto

[Panzerpanic]

If you insist. All I can say is don't play the game believing you're entitled to some kind of result or it'll never be very satisfying. Remember the enemy will probably have their own wtf moments too. You're just not inclined to perceive them because our minds tend to focus on our own problems.

I have no idea why a greenhouse like the Bulat would have poor situational awareness. The T-64 sort of doesn't surprise me though. That tank is a relic of the Cold War and crew optics are probably somewhere between a cardboard tube and a pair of butter smeared swimming goggles. But hey, the gunner can see the blobs at night now too!

I am not a native english speaker so sometime i have i hard time trying to explain what i want to say. Anyway i dont play the game believing that something should happen like i think it should happen its just that sometime some result keep me perplexes. But i am the one at fault here as maybe i still not put the thermal and better thermal variable correctly in the tank battle equation. Im use to pretty much same capacity in the two iteration of the cm who are in ww2 and cmsf was pretty much heavily one sided.

On another note, a lot of people say that having the tc unbottned on a t64bv give him a better situationnal awareness but is it to the detriment of his long range view as (at least ) he have the help of his tc optic ? And is it the same for the bulat,72b3 and t90a?

Thanks,

Panzerpanic

Edited June 10, 2015 by Panzerpanic

[Panzerpanic]

What my Bulat did to a T72 and a BMP in one shot. The Bulat and T72 traded a couple rounds. The T72 backed out of sight behind the BMP... no problem.

On the first scenario that i mentioned earlier, one of my bmp3 got a konkur to the face and as i always forget those vehicule are walking bomb.... lets say the squad inside, the bmp3on his right and the squad inside just vanished in flame. 'Twas a nice quadruple kill for a bmp2......

[Nerdwing]

I am not a native english speaker so sometime i have i hard time trying to explain what i want to say. Anyway i dont play the game believing that something should happen like i think it should happen its just that sometime some result keep me perplexes. But i am the one at fault here as maybe i still not put the thermal and better thermal variable correctly in the tank battle equation. Im use to pretty much same capacity in the two iteration of the cm who are in ww2 and cmsf was pretty much heavily one sided.

On another note, a lot of people say that having the tc unbottned on a t64bv give him a better situationnal awareness but is it to the detriment of his long range view as (at least ) he have the help of his tc optic ? And is it the same for the bulat,72b3 and t90a?

Thanks,

Panzerpanic

 

The B3 wouldnt get the advantage.  I dont think the Bulat should. T90... it depends on the variant I think.  IF it has thermals, its pretty much best left buttoned for optimum view  Thats a semi-rule for me.

[Sublime]

T64s are the only mbt in game i always believe shud be unbuttoned. i spot fair to middling that way. i mean after all they are old old equipment. the shturm sucks ive usednit extensively. id ratherbhave infantry atgm teams. now khriz are cool. sibce the patch they seem to salvo a lot more and ive gotten a good amount of pbem abrams kills with them. but its definitely an ambush weapon. and sometimes it can get killed leaving you with wtf just shot it moments. i dont think the radar works as it rlly shud but it does sometimes and i have had luck hiding bmp3s nearby to khrizs and makinh a smokescreen in front ofbthem. sometimes it doesnt seem to work as advertised othertimes it does and the khrizs shoot kornets through the ir proof smoke screen which is beautiful to behold.

[antaress73]

Agusto :dont use the impact angle tactic with the Abrams . Maximum frontal turret armor LOS on the Abrams turret is from a narrow angle from the front. It you hit the frontal turret at an angle you hit it at 90 degrees and it is easier to penetrate (less LOS thickness). Not good for the Abrams. I've seen full penetrations of the thick left and right side front turret because of that.

Edited June 10, 2015 by antaress73

[Panzerpanic]

Last question do bulat have thermal. Little question like that because another one of "those" situation happened where , in the heat of battle, i got three bulat at maybe 50meter of two t-90a in a battle at dawn, clear weather on a plain, no smoke between them and they never saw them as the two t-90 just rotated slowly and kill all the three bulat one by one without any of them getting to only see them. Like it was say earlier, if it were that those t-90 would won because they were better armoured and have better crew and won in a fight that would have been ok. But, they were not a fight at all even at that distance wich is very frustrating as i did all the effort to sneak those bulat near the t-90 and well nyet you die. If it were the other way around i could have just made the t-90 move from one corner of the map and well they would have killed anything without returning fire.... anyway right now i will keep those screenshot and ill post them when ill have the internet back in my house. Ill keep the save game also as it seems borderline a bug and its not the first time wich something like that happened

!

[Panzerpanic]

On a secound try i fast move all of my forces to the three t-90 and i saw a t-64 litteraly stop, move around a living t-90 and then get blown up by it without seeing it once. Very funny! very immersion killing . At least at a 12v3 (with ally btr tunning everywhere as target i got one t-90!!!