stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 With difficulty, and something that will be massively different and a challenge compared to WW2 titles. It will be when your scouts get shot at with 'splodey fings then you'll have the indication that they've stumbled upon the enemy. If you lucky your scout's sensors/ night vision will be superior to theirs and they'll live to tell the tale.yea but you can't count on that. The best way would be to have a lot of scouts, with each scout looking at a slice of the ground, with his flanks covered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 yea but you can't count on that. The best way would be to have a lot of scouts, with each scout looking at a slice of the ground, with his flanks covered. Nothing is stopping you from sending out multiple scout teams... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In a vehicle rich environment you might be able to get away with a vehicle doing spotting. After all a Humvee, a panel truck and a family SUV are all the same distant hot spot on the IR monitor. In an warm body rich environment the distant hot spot on a hill could be a FO, or an infantryman, or merely locals watching the goings-on. Of course CMBS isn't exactly studded with civilian cars or civilian on-lookers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Nothing is stopping you from sending out multiple scout teams...yea but it's just different, it's not like cmbn at all. It's a different approach. Night approaches a day approaches are going to be completely different. And scouting at night is going to be hard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 In a vehicle rich environment you might be able to get away with a vehicle doing spotting. After all a Humvee, a panel truck and a family SUV are all the same distant hot spot on the IR monitor. In an warm body rich environment the distant hot spot on a hill could be a FO, or an infantryman, or merely locals watching the goings-on. Of course CMBS isn't exactly studded with civilian cars or civilian on-lookers.thats what I'm saying, night attacks are going to be hard to sneak up on the enemy and it's going to be about who has the best positions. The guy who was first in the building is going to have a big advantage over the guy coming around the corner. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 yea but a normal unit would just get spotted...You've nearly got it: a sniper on the high intensity battle field is just another "normal unit". A small, possibly innoccuous-looking one that might get passed over in the target priorities for a team that's more likely to have MANPAT or other heavy weapons. And still infantry can move without necessarily just getting blown apart by 100mm airbursts. They just have to do it in full defilade, and be right careful about exposing their tender bonces over the crest so they can see where the enemy are....isn't there some kind of long range hidden observers?...This is not StarCraft. There are no Ghosts. You say you've played this game before, but I don't think you've really understood it....I'm trying to think a way around the infrared vision.When you do, there are half a dozen or more high tech defense contractors who would simply love to hear from you.Sure you can't use it in the day...Unfortunately, you've a thing or two to learn before you're going to be in a position to think of ways to sidestep IR sights, starting with "Yes, you can use it in the day". See also my point on thermodynamics....how do you scout anything when everyone can see you from a mile away?Wicky answered you. There are also UAVs. Or you could use an MBT.yea but you can't count on that.No you can't. And that's a good thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) yea but it's just different, it's not like cmbn at all. It's a different approach. Night approaches a day approaches are going to be completely different. And scouting at night is going to be hard. U.S. Forces will have an significant advantage at night, US infantry night vision combine both thermal and night vision and small arms can also be equipped with thermal sights, US thermal optics and night vision optics on vehicles are also superior to there Russian counterparts. Russian infantry only have access to night vision sights on there weapons or if they are recon night vision goggles, there vehicle optics are also inferior to that of the US. Edited January 7, 2015 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 You've nearly got it: a sniper on the high intensity battle field is just another "normal unit". A small, possibly innoccuous-looking one that might get passed over in the target priorities for a team that's more likely to have MANPAT or other heavy weapons. And still infantry can move without necessarily just getting blown apart by 100mm airbursts. They just have to do it in full defilade, and be right careful about exposing their tender bonces over the crest so they can see where the enemy are.This is not StarCraft. There are no Ghosts. You say you've played this game before, but I don't think you've really understood it.When you do, there are half a dozen or more high tech defense contractors who would simply love to hear from you.Unfortunately, you've a thing or two to learn before you're going to be in a position to think of ways to sidestep IR sights, starting with "Yes, you can use it in the day". See also my point on thermodynamics.Wicky answered you. There are also UAVs. Or you could use an MBT.No you can't. And that's a good thing. Yea but is there a dedicated stealth scout unit? I know that this game is about sacrifice, but I don't like that, there has to be a way around sending my two man scout team to die everytime I want to know who's around the corner. yea you got some cool jokes, they are kinda cute kinda funny Yea but I thought in the day, your surroundings are as hot as you are. Maybe not under the canopy, but definitely in urban areas. Yea, but uav's don't work if they have anti air units which they keep on the back lines. How else are you doing to scout? You're going to be walking into an ambush everytime you want to move a unit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 U.S. Forces will have an significant advantage at night, US infantry night vision combine both thermal and night vision and small arms can also be equipped with thermal sights, US thermal optics and night vision optics on vehicles are also superior to there Russian counterparts. Russian infantry only have access to night vision sights on there weapons or if they are recon night vision goggles, there vehicle optics are also inferior to that of the US.ok let's say it's a us vs us scenario. If one side has an obvious advantage, it's not much of a fight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Yea but is there a dedicated stealth scout unit? I know that this game is about sacrifice, but I don't like that, there has to be a way around sending my two man scout team to die everytime I want to know who's around the corner. yea you got some cool jokes, they are kinda cute kinda funny Yea but I thought in the day, your surroundings are as hot as you are. Maybe not under the canopy, but definitely in urban areas. Yea, but uav's don't work if they have anti air units which they keep on the back lines. How else are you doing to scout? You're going to be walking into an ambush everytime you want to move a unit. There is no certainty in combat, you are looking for perfection, that which doesn't exist, combat is chaos, CM simulates that quite well, if you find out how to not lose men in war please forward that to our military leadership. ok let's say it's a us vs us scenario. If one side has an obvious advantage, it's not much of a fight. I think you are missing the entire point of Combat Mission, it isn't supposed to be fair, there is no balance there is only what each country has, the Russians are completely capable of inflicting casualties, I have no idea where you get the idea that this game will be so easy for one side. Edited January 7, 2015 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 There is no certainty in combat, you are looking for perfection, that which doesn't exist, combat is chaos, CM simulates that quite well, if you find out how to not lose men in war please forward that to our military leadership. I think you are missing the entire point of Combat Mission, it isn't supposed to be fair, there is no balance there is only what each country has, the Russians are completely capable of inflicting casualties, I have no idea where you get the idea that this game will be so easy for one side.maybe I'm wrong and U.S. won't have such a big advantage, but i just want to know how to scout effectively. I could just use guys as bait, but then I'd have to lose like half my men to gain an advantage, and I'm wondering if there is a better way of scouting. I mean, that's what the game is. Hide and seek. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 dude they get shot down like nothing, I mean, just change the level of stealthiness on a sniper unit, and change the model a bit. And you base that assertion on?... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In terms of game mechanics, the limits of real sniper operations, and the effort of doing a completely new model I have a proposal that is at least simple. Give any true sniper a large concealment bonus, subject to thermals and such, if they stay in the spot they started the scenario in. This represents the extremely painstaking process of setting up a proper concealed shooting position. We just assume they started the night before. As soon as they move, everything reverts to current normal. The ghillie suit is just eye candy, in game terms its the modifier that matters. Scenario designers would of course have to provide rational set up zones where appropriate. I don't think we are even likely to get that, but it is probably the BEST that can reasonably be hoped for in a game with this much armor focus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Bil Hardenberger has wriiten scouting tutorials (check in his signature) - also read/ watch and learn from his past & present battle reports. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) In terms of game mechanics, the limits of real sniper operations, and the effort of doing a completely new model I have a proposal that is at least simple. Give any true sniper a large concealment bonus, subject to thermals and such, if they stay in the spot they started the scenario in. This represents the extremely painstaking process of setting up a proper concealed shooting position. We just assume they started the night before. As soon as they move, everything reverts to current normal. The ghillie suit is just eye candy, in game terms its the modifier that matters. Scenario designers would of course have to provide rational set up zones where appropriate. I don't think we are even likely to get that, but it is probably the BEST that can reasonably be hoped for in a game with this much armor focus. There is no point to having that in a conflict like this, snipers won't be operating on a battlefield that can change from one place to another that is 30 miles away in one day. Edited January 7, 2015 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 yea but a normal unit would just get spotted, isn't there some kind of long range hidden observers? Or just something where it's not as obvious. Because I'm trying to think a way around the infrared vision. Sure you can't use it in the day, but in the night, how do you scout anything when everyone can see you from a mile away? Smoke, suppression, and paying the butchers bill. There is a reason the Pentagon is devoting so much effort to robotics. But for ground warfare the tech isn't there yet. You just don't get clean victories against a reasonably competent opponent. Its an excellent reason not to have the war. The solution for small drones getting swatted like flies is to launch enough of them at once that some of them live long enough to be useful. The TO&E has not yet adjusted to this reality, however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) And you base that assertion on?...that one video Chris's did of the first campaign mission, that first one didn't last 5 minutes, plus one of them said that uav's are not as good as we think they are Edited January 7, 2015 by stealthsilent1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 In terms of game mechanics, the limits of real sniper operations, and the effort of doing a completely new model I have a proposal that is at least simple. Give any true sniper a large concealment bonus, subject to thermals and such, if they stay in the spot they started the scenario in. This represents the extremely painstaking process of setting up a proper concealed shooting position. We just assume they started the night before. As soon as they move, everything reverts to current normal. The ghillie suit is just eye candy, in game terms its the modifier that matters. Scenario designers would of course have to provide rational set up zones where appropriate. I don't think we are even likely to get that, but it is probably the BEST that can reasonably be hoped for in a game with this much armor focus.thats kinda a long shot, I just wanted to understand what scouted would be like in cmbs, and I wanted to figured a way around the system without sending bait troops. But the company will do what they want, I'm just talking to talk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Well, as Womble suggested - if your infantry scouts are going to be spotted and killed by an enemy vehicle, scout with your vehicle that can kill it - eg. your Main Battle Tank. And remember, it's not a one way street - you're going to spot the enemy too in exactly the same way. They have the same problem you do Plus, range is a factor. They're not going to ( you hope ) instantly spot the IR signature of someone's head and shoulders 2km away. Maybe you just popped up and back down after a quick shufti and on the other side of the battlefield, there's a guy going "did you see that ?" Maybe your scout's positioned himself so there's a cow behind him. Remember, in game terms, the units still have to scan and spot, it's not going to be instantaneous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 that one video Chris's did of the first campaign mission, that first one didn't last 5 minutes, plus one of them said that uav's are not as good as we think they are Does depend on the type of UAV - also some tweaks done in later beta of game to anti-aircraft assets ability to target some types of UAVs. I've found the smaller types last long enough to ID stuff - just depends on how large a search area you give them and what type of anti-aircraft asset is in the AO e.g. Tunguska is deadly to most flying stuff but only the Russians have these. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Does depend on the type of UAV - also some tweaks done in later beta of game to anti-aircraft assets ability to target some types of UAVs. I've found the smaller types last long enough to ID stuff - just depends on how large a search area you give them and what type of anti-aircraft asset is in the AO e.g. Tunguska is deadly to most flying stuff but only the Russians have these. it was the mini raven Uav 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, as Womble suggested - if your infantry scouts are going to be spotted and killed by an enemy vehicle, scout with your vehicle that can kill it - eg. your Main Battle Tank. And remember, it's not a one way street - you're going to spot the enemy too in exactly the same way. They have the same problem you do Plus, range is a factor. They're not going to ( you hope ) instantly spot the IR signature of someone's head and shoulders 2km away. Maybe you just popped up and back down after a quick shufti and on the other side of the battlefield, there's a guy going "did you see that ?" Maybe your scout's positioned himself so there's a cow behind him. Remember, in game terms, the units still have to scan and spot, it's not going to be instantaneous.yea but the person behind the structure or object always has the advantage because he is not moving, and has the first reaction. Also do every single unit have binoculars and infrared goggles, or is it just one unit that has them? Because if it's just one unit, the team staying still will take out the enemies eyes, and then win the game. And we will see just how effective infrared is at night and in the day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) yea but the person behind the structure or object always has the advantage because he is not moving, and has the first reaction. Also do every single unit have binoculars and infrared goggles, or is it just one unit that has them? Because if it's just one unit, the team staying still will take out the enemies eyes, and then win the game. And we will see just how effective infrared is at night and in the day. All of these conclusions you are coming too are completely false because there is no certainty in anything, sure the guy whose sitting still (Probably defending) does usually have the advantage, calm down and find out when you play the game for yourself. Edited January 8, 2015 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthsilent1 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 All of these conclusions you are coming too are completely false because there is no certainty in anything, sure the guy whose sitting still (Probably defending) does usually have the advantage, calm down and find out when you play the game for yourself.yea but then I don't get to talk about it, and it's fun to talk about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) At the LOS commonly found on an european battlefield (determined to be 1 to 2 km) the US thermal advantage in definition in vehicule systems wont be such a concern for the russians, only in very specific conditions not commonly found. In the middle east, that's another matter. But those thermal/ light intensifier hybrid googles for infantry could be a problem at night. A guy at 300 meters on this system would be obvious and would glow , on classic night vision, not so much. Correct me if i'm wrong Edited January 10, 2015 by antaress73 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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