Tactical problem

[DMS]

You have a Soviet rifle company and T-34-76 platoon. Enemy in defense have a grenadier platoon with attached HMG section (2 heavy MG-42). HMGs are entrenched, well placed to fire at 500m+. There are no passages for getting close such as forest or buildings, you have to attack through the open terrain.

 

What are your actions?

I would move T-34s forward, then infantry. T-34 would supress MG nests, infantry would get close and kill the rest of the enemy. IRL probably it would work. In the game... T-34s don't see anything. HMG fires 500m ahead - they don't see it. 300m too. I tried to make recon and send messengers to tank platoon leader, so tanks would have question marks for HMGs - it doesn't help, tanks don't spot targets.

Manualy target place, where HMGs are? It is a gamey, far from realism. Manualy target question marks?

Infantry also can't supress HMGs. DP-27 is as useless as BAR.

What you would do?

Edited January 2, 2015 by DMS

[George MC]

Use tanks to suppress likely points of enemy resistance using area fire, don't wait or try to spot em - infantry move up under this supporting fire. Rinse and repeat.

 

Or mount infantry onto tanks and charge hell for leather onto the position - take yer knocks but overrun it. You've enough infantry.

[womble]

You have a Soviet rifle company and T-34-76 platoon. Enemy in defense have a grenadier platoon with attached HMG section (2 heavy MG-42). HMGs are entrenched, well placed to fire at 500m+. There are no passages for getting close such as forest or buildings, you have to attack through the open terrain.

You have won. The Germans have nothing that can stop your tanks. Assuming your intel on the enemy is correct. Don't get within 150m and they'll empty their shrecks before they kill enough of your platoon to stop you murdelating them.

 

What are your actions?

1. Get infantry as far forward as they safely can.

2. Drive your entire T-34 platoon up to 200m from the nearest enemy position your infantry can see and stop. Start neutralising resistance from there.

Manualy target place, where HMGs are? It is a gamey, far from realism. Manualy target question marks?

It's not that gamey. Just because there's no "?" doesn't actually mean they can't see anything. It can just mean they haven't communicated the presence to you yet, especially given the poor Soviet comms net. There are times when a unit will open fire (i.e. have a solid spot; they don't shoot at "?" on their own recognisance, ever) at a target that you don't have an icon for yet.

Even if you still think it is "gamey", bear in mind that the scenario designer will have had in mind the parameters of the game when he was designing it, and will be expecting you to use the tools available to you as a player.

And beyond that, you've enough MGs to blanket large areas of "suspected" terrain. Shooting at a place often gets a visible reaction. Staying still will improve your spotting. You probably don't have enough TCs to risk unbuttoning to get a better look.

Do you have any smoke available from company mortars (do Russian infantry even have mortars at the company level?) or the tanks? Are you absolutely sure that the entire approach route can fired upon from all possible enemy positions, or is there any declivity which will mean you can advance infantry into the face of the guns of only a part of the defense, a part sufficiently small that you can blanket it with T-34 fire? If you do have mortars, can you sneak a spotter into a place to call missions on key MG nests, in order to make a hole you can exploit? You just have to cut the number of long range guns down to a manageable number.

But most of all, get to "just outside effective infantry AT range" and sit there like turrets blowing up Germans.

[Baneman]

What everyone else said.

 

...

Manualy target place, where HMGs are? It is a gamey, far from realism. Manualy target question marks?

...

 

Not remotely gamey - in real life units were far from shy about plastering a suspected enemy position even if no one had seen any enemy there.

Safe was always better than sorry since they cared far more about their lives than our pixeltroops.

 

"Gunner, 2 rounds of HE into the house on the right" type of thing.

 

There's even a good scene of this in a Band of Brothers episode where the officer tells his mortar man "put mortars onto that roof until it's gone, when it's gone everyone charges" or words to that effect.

They knew there was an MG42 there, but they couldn't see it.

 

Area fire is a tool you have. Use the tools you've got.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Baneman

[JasonC]

Start with the infantry in a formation with one platoon leading, two platoons in line behind them and to the sides, weapons and HQ in the middle of that line directly behind the lead platoon.

Tanks initially in the middle of that line and trailing it slightly.  Everyone well spread out to avoid giving good artillery targets etc.

 

Leading platoon steps off on move to contact until it draws fire.  Goes to ground when it does so.

With the lead platoon 100 yards ahead, all the rest of the infantry, plus the tanks, advances at a walking pace, on line.

 

As soon as enemy fire halts the infantry, tanks advance through the infantry to 200 meters from the sound contacts firing at said infantry.

The infantry are on their bellies, using every fold of ground as cover, hiding in the grass etc.  No job but to rally.  HQs, ATRs, MGs with binocs are eyes up but stationary, rest can hide.

Occasionally a single squad at a time advances 50 meters and hits the deck again, "walking" gradually closer to the enemy if not fired upon sufficiently.  There is no rush whatever, you have all day.

 

If the enemy MGs "go quiet" to avoid being spotted by the tanks, then the squad infantry begins advancing.  Roughly half are moving at any given time, the others on their bellies.

They switch off who is moving, moving only every other minute and for less than the full minute.  Perhaps 1/3rd of total elapsed "clock time" is spent moving.  

This is meant to present a poor target for a defender's "mad minute", meaning opening up with all MGs and squads.  Such an attempt would only pin half the attacking infantry.

The other half and the tanks would be untouched and the tanks instantly replying.

 

Meanwhile, if the defenders stay quiet, the tanks remain out of infantry AT range, and the whole company crawls closer in a staggered fashion.

Once the infantry are within good rifle range - 250 yards, say - all their heavy weapons stop moving closer, MGs set up, etc.

Then one platoon, only, advances to 200 yards and goes stationary there.  Then a second.  Then one advances to 150 yards and goes stationary there.

 

When you have a whole line of rifles and MGs even with the tanks ready to blow apart any enemy who opens fire in less than a minute, send a half squad to the nearest old sound contact.

Minimal risked force in any movement that close.  They only need to trigger fire, and should get within grenade and good SMG range if they don't draw any.

 

Whenever they like in the above process, the defenders are invited to challenge the approaching infantry company.  The tanks then murder them, supplemented by the non-moving, in-range portions of the infantry company.  The moving, fired-upon portions of the infantry company just hit the deck and remain stationary, with no mission but to hide and rally.  They count on their friends getting the shooters off of them.  Other squads may move out to draw the fire in the meantime.

 

All it takes.  A defensive position, even in the open and with entrenchments, needs ranged tank killing weapons to stop such an advance.  If it doesn't have them, or enough artillery to break up the infantry company without revealing any infantry firing positions, then it is toast.  It just takes time.

[kevinkin]

I guess my question is how much ground needs to be covered and in what time frame?

 

Kevin

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I would be suspicious that this plton is actuallly bait for hidden AT guns. Assault guns or tanks. So first I would scou the area and establish that this was not the case. Them I would move the tanks to within 500 - 600m of the enemy position. Use them t create a basr of fire along with one rifle platoon. The ther two rifle platos will employ fire and movement tactics to assist in suppressing the enemy and move them into close assault positions. If the Germans have not retreated or surrendered then close assaullt thei positions. Move the tnks and the firest rifle pltoon up quickly from the fire support base to support the final attack and exploit success.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

You have won. The Germans have nothing that can stop your tanks. Assuming your intel on the enemy is correct. Don't get within 150m and they'll empty their shrecks before they kill enough of your platoon to stop you murdelating them.

 

1. Get infantry as far forward as they safely can.

2. Drive your entire T-34 platoon up to 200m from the nearest enemy position your infantry can see and stop. Start neutralising resistance from there.

It's not that gamey. Just because there's no "?" doesn't actually mean they can't see anything. It can just mean they haven't communicated the presence to you yet, especially given the poor Soviet comms net. There are times when a unit will open fire (i.e. have a solid spot; they don't shoot at "?" on their own recognisance, ever) at a target that you don't have an icon for yet.

Even if you still think it is "gamey", bear in mind that the scenario designer will have had in mind the parameters of the game when he was designing it, and will be expecting you to use the tools available to you as a player.

And beyond that, you've enough MGs to blanket large areas of "suspected" terrain. Shooting at a place often gets a visible reaction. Staying still will improve your spotting. You probably don't have enough TCs to risk unbuttoning to get a better look.

Do you have any smoke available from company mortars (do Russian infantry even have mortars at the company level?) or the tanks? Are you absolutely sure that the entire approach route can fired upon from all possible enemy positions, or is there any declivity which will mean you can advance infantry into the face of the guns of only a part of the defense, a part sufficiently small that you can blanket it with T-34 fire? If you do have mortars, can you sneak a spotter into a place to call missions on key MG nests, in order to make a hole you can exploit? You just have to cut the number of long range guns down to a manageable number.

But most of all, get to "just outside effective infantry AT range" and sit there like turrets blowing up Germans.

 

The Type 43 Soviet  infantry battalionhas liht moortars in the 4th platon, The Type 44 battalion loses these.

[DMS]

Thank you for replies! So, using area fire at question marks is not a gamey and should be used, it is developers and scenario authors intention. Though that HMGs can wipe out squads even with such tank support. MG-42 are deadly accurate, infantry is fragile and poor motivated.

 

By the way, do you try to play in realistic, self restricting way? For example, when recon spots enemy, you would send messenger to company HQ, then to tank platoon leader. Then company HQ reports about contacts to attacking platoon. And only then you give attack orders. Or nobody cares about such things? In CMSF it really worked, BMP would spot blue vehicles much faster and had time to shoot. In CMRT soviet tanks doesn't spot in both cases.

 

 

I guess my question is how much ground needs to be covered and in what time frame?

 

Kevin

 

 

Let's say 1 hour and 500-700m of frontline.

Edited January 3, 2015 by DMS

[Muzzleflash1990]

 

By the way, do you try to play in realistic, self restricting way?

 

Somewhat. Planned recon by fire is exempt to me restraining my use of area fire. However, if I am attacked and my unit do not have any idea where the enemy is - that is no contact marker - I almost never order an area fire. Exceptions would be fortifications,  or if everybody else around the unit is firing at the enemy, or the enemy is laying out a ton of fire - the logic being "where there is smoke there is fire". If the unit has a dimmed/transparent contact I usually also refrain from area targeting and instead wait for the unit itself to gain a solid direct contact itself. If that does not happen in a couple of minutes I allow myself to give the target order on the contact location. I don't manually simulate messengers between the different headquarters, instead I defer to the games C2 links.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[JasonC]

I am "allowed" to area fire.  But unless I have a hard contact previously and lost it, I generally don't.  It just isn't that effective.

If I had a full spot there a minute ago but it has gone away and I suspect that is just the men going heads down, area fire at the old spot is perfectly reasonable.  

It is also effective enough, often enough, that I will spend the ammo to do it, though generally only for a minute, not for extended periods.  Ammo is too useful to blow on a possibly dead target.

 

Recon by fire is something I only use when there is quite limited enemy side cover and I think I can deduce where they have to be.  Sometimes high ammo weapons like "target light" from a tank to use its MGs only, about it.

 

As for runners, no I don't "simulate" them.  The troops are hard enough to corral without such additional work.  Sometimes I still find I have to run HQ teams hither and yon to get spots or put forces in command etc.  Works.

 

As for the brittleness of infantry, if they go stationary and rally whenever shot at, and someone else moves off, they can absorb plenty of punishment in my experience.  It helps to have steppe terrain / high grass to hide in, and undulating ground and such, to be sure.  It works because the enemy will lose the spot and shift fire to still moving units.  Then the previously hit units get a few minutes of respite, to rally. The enemy rarely has enough firepower to kill a whole company at range.  To scare it sure, or to kill it close enough.  But by then spots happen and I can fire back.  As long as I spread around who is moving and don't push faster than the men rally = want to go, a couple of HMGs can't hold off a whole company of infantry in the long range envelope.

 

Good stealthy defenses can supplement a few HMGs with other weapons, though.  Mortars firing from defilade at units that go to ground; light FOs dropping artillery fire on any sizable group, snipers on top of the HMGs (even harder to see etc).  And if all of it is meant to draw the tanks forward to give ATGs side shots, sometimes tanks ahead won't solve the whole problem.  But just a couple of entrenched MGs vs a supported rifle company, no problem.  It is a standard drill one needs to learn, without needing to rely on great cover to get close.

[A Canadian Cat]

By the way, do you try to play in realistic, self restricting way?

The pace of the game is faster than real life often and this kind of thing is why.  The scouts go up and we get their reports shortly after they have noticed the enemy, rather than after they run back.  We coordinate all our units and artillery quite quickly whereas in real life it would take longer.   That is where the game side of the simulation / game comes in.  Feel free to slow yourself down as much as you like - enjoy the game the way you want.

 

Having you tanks area fire on the HMGs is just the kind of coordination that would happen.  Your lead platoon of infantry move up and come under MG fire.  They stop and report back the the company CO who coordinates with the tanks to move up to support.  They would likely meet with the platoon leader who can describe to the tankers where the MGs are.  Then your attack begins.  The tanks might not see the MGs right away but the infantry already told them roughly where they are so they lay on the HE roughly in the right area and go from there.

 

If you want to simulate that you can have the tanks unbuttoned meet up with the platoon leader and have a 1 or 2 minute chat first.  Seems reasonable to me.