Suppression Test Results

[A Canadian Cat]

And you should never mess with a sniper unless you have lots of friends handy.

[JoMac]

AIUI, the "cover save" mechanic applies to all small projectiles (whether they be bullets or shell fragments), and is intended to represent the kind of factors you describe.

My SWAG on how it works is that the game first calculates whether a given projectile intersects the 3D model of the soldier, in which case it is registered as a "possible hit", and then there is a "saving throw," which if in the soldier's favor will turn what would otherwise be a hit into a miss.

Not sure of all of the factors that determine the "saving throw" chance, but ground cover definitely a big one -- a soldier in something like heavy woods gets a much better save than one on bare pavement.

Oh, in that case CM definately needs to dial-up the "Save Rolls' even more so...

[Sailor Malan2]

Lots of speculation/guesswork. Not seen any tests of the SMGs etc. I was in a long thread a while ago that argued that HMGs were undermodelled! Need an objective standard and some firing ranges if you want to go anywhere with this... The suppression test was perfect...

[Pak40]

Interesting, I must admit I thought I had observed that longer than one minute was necessary to get reliable suppression. Maybe your volume of incoming fire is high, and say 4 rifles would need longer. I guess it might not need longer to do the suppression, but have a smaller chance of suppressing so need longer to get more checks?

I think your initial thoughts are correct. The tests I ran are not the normal encounter they we CMBN players are used to. Normally, a platoon sized attacking force might encounter a squad size defense split into 3 teams. Therefore your suppressing units will have to split the firepower and this will significantly reduce the amount of suppression.

[Pak40]

small arms fire in general is not overmodeled. However, automatic weapons, and especially SMGs, are more useful than they should be.

Because infantry moves in a tight column formation nearly constantly a quick burst from an MP40 can rack up half a squad in casualties with ease.

As a side note, I should say the in Test 8 where there was 6 casualties, 4 of those were from 1 grenade and only 2 by the MP40. It was a little misleading the way I originally wrote the results.

I agree with your assessment of the tight column issues in CMx2 engine. In the tests, the assault squad was split into 3 teams but they still tended to be in a column mode mostly because they went the Bocage gap that way. This could be another good test for the CM engine: Are assaulting columns really easier to mow down by automatic weapons than a spread out force?

[Bulletpoint]

It seems to me SMGs in the game throw out a steady stream of projectiles, as if the gun was held almost perfectly still with next to no recoil. Some kind of bullet spread would probably be more realistic.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I was in a long thread a while ago that argued that HMGs were undermodelled! Need an objective standard and some firing ranges if you want to go anywhere with this... The suppression test was perfect...

Machine guns and sub-machine guns are significantly different categories of weapons. In the same vein, lethality and suppression should not be lumped together. A weapon does not need to be particularly accurate to effectively suppress.

[Michael Emrys]

It seems to me SMGs in the game throw out a steady stream of projectiles, as if the gun was held almost perfectly still with next to no recoil. Some kind of bullet spread would probably be more realistic.

I noticed when BN first came out that the German LMGs did exactly that (haven't checked for Allied or Soviet LMGs yet). Also the HMGs when fired unmounted. The first round of a burst was on target, but subsequent rounds were increasingly high.

Michael

[Sailor Malan2]

Machine guns and sub-machine guns are significantly different categories of weapons. In the same vein, lethality and suppression should not be lumped together. A weapon does not need to be particularly accurate to effectively suppress.

I was giving another example of subjective assessment that was undone by objective testing, not suggesting equivalence. If you are basing msg performance on films we need a 'goody/baddy' switch:). Otherwise we need historical data and some range tests.