Tips on how to use CAS?

[Bulletpoint]

Well, today I was trying to use CAS for the second time ever. Placed an area target order, and kept 1st platoon at the ready to move in after the attack. I thought the platoon was distant enough to not get targeted - it was around 100 metres away from the blue target circle.

The plane made a perfect strafing run down the hedge where my guys were sitting, out of a whole platoon including leader, HMG and ammo bearers there were a total of 5 wounded survivors.

My personal morale dropped quite a bit, and I decided to ask Father Google for help. Well, he didn't come up with anything useful, so maybe someone here can share a few tips?

That is, how point target and area target works for CAS. How to hit the enemy and not your own troops.

And how to best use the different types of mission; light, medium and heavy.

[JonS]

Bear in mind that standard advice today, for troops on the ground in 2014, is to get the planes in early, and then get them out of the way. Applying that to CM, set 70-odd years ago, I'd suggest using them during the Setup Phase, awaaaay over the other side of the map.

Air isn't a scapel. It's a cudgel wielded by a blind giant with the mental and emotional maturity of a baby suffering from ADHD.

[Bulletpoint]

Bear in mind that standard advice today, for troops on the ground in 2014, is to get the planes in early, and then get them out of the way. Applying that to CM, set 70-odd years ago, I'd suggest using them during the Setup Phase, awaaaay over the other side of the map.

Wanted to do that, but that's not possible in this mission (Ecoqueneuville). No line of sight to the village, and the air support becomes available 5 minutes after mission start, so can't pre-plan it.

How to actually use area attack in any useful way?

What's the relation between the area target circle and the area that actually gets attacked?

[A Canadian Cat]

I thought the platoon was distant enough to not get targeted - it was around 100 metres away from the blue target circle.

Yikes, that is way to close. My rule for safe distance is 500m. I might risk 250m if there is cover but really 500m is the way to go. Which means that an infantry platoon is got going to be rushing in after the attack.

Check out what Mother Google found: https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Abattlefront.com+CAS

[womble]

Don't use area targets.

If you must use area targets, stay half the map away from them. And hide in any trees or buildings you have available.

[Quintus Sertorius]

Yeah, 100m is way too close to a CAS area target. If you're setting a CAS area target, I would use your imagination to double the size of the highlighted circle, and assume that's the actual target area.

[YankeeDog]

Disclaimer: the below has nothing to do with "realism", rather with how the game works.

"Area" CAS targets tell the aircraft to "Hunt" within the designated target area. Aircraft executing an Area target will only open fire on a spotted target. It will try to find an target within the target area, but if it doesn't see anything within the target zone, it's quite likely to go "off the ranch" and target a unit it does spot outside the target zone, without much regard to whether said unit is friendly or enemy.

In contrast, "Point" target tells the aircraft to target that specific spot on the map. It will, as best it can, drop bombs/shoot rockets/strafe at that spot, regardless of whether there's any units there or not. IME, a Point target only goes awry if the aircraft can't see the target point (e.g., smoke or tree cover obscures the view), in which case the aircraft simply scrubs the mission and fails to drop ordnance (of course, on executed missions, there is always some variation in actual impact point due to inaccuracy of the weapons system).

There is a third type of mission: A Point target targeted directly onto an enemy vehicle which the spotter can see, in which case you get the "Target Vehicle" notice when plotting the order. IME, these missions also never go awry (i.e., the aircraft never targets another vehicle or location entirely), but these missions have a high scrub chance -- I assume the aircraft has to actually spot the targeted vehicle itself for this type of mission to succeed.

Take away from all this is only use Area target missions if you're pretty confident there's enemy unit(s) within the target zone that will be easily spotted from the air -- for example, if you know there's enemy tanks in the open in the target zone. In most other situations, you're probably better off using Point targets. Ordnance falling blindly on a designated map coordinate is more useful than ordnance falling randomly on a unit somewhere on the map, without regard to whether said unit is friendly or enemy.

[Bulletpoint]

Thanks for all advice, especially YankeeDog - exactly the kind of info I was hoping for.

I'm at Le Hamelet setup phase now, looking at the sorry remnants of 1st platoon (all five of them) in shame. But hey, lesson learnt

[Sailor Malan2]

As a rule of thumb, I consider 100m too close for 81mm mortars (unless direct fired)! So for an aircraft, no way! I might allow a 2"/60mm but you are asking an awful lot of the firing team not to drop a spotting round (at least) that far out. Much more comfortable with 250m (if the incoming isnt too big). Oh, and rockets, double safety distance and move to the next highest unit, so 500Km is about right!

[YankeeDog]

Again, this has nothing to do with realism (in fact it's quite unrealistic), but one of the odder side effects of the way CAS works in CMBN and CMFI is that Point target CAS mission arguably have less of a danger zone than mortar and artillery missions.

As previously noted, Point target CAS missions never target the wrong spot; if anything, they just scrub and fail to come in entirely. They also never involve spotting rounds, and it's really the spotting rounds that dictate "danger close" distance for mortar and artillery in CMx2 -- they can be hundreds of meters off and therefore potentially dangerous to friendlies a considerable distance from the intended target point.

So for gameplay purposes, you can actually move friendlies in close to a CAS Point Target mission with less risk than an artillery mission involving similar-sized warheads.

200m safety distance is no problem for lighter ordnance CAS missions like strafe or 5" rockets, and you can get this close even to the bigger stuff like 500lb/220kg bombs as long as your units have good intervening cover like a wall or building. Aerial Bombs are only very rarely more than 100m off target in CMBN/FI, so 200m + something that blocks the larger bomb fragments that fly long distance is usually just fine.

[Haggard Sketchy]

I like area target to make sure the CAS gets used up in time though. On actual spotted targets too. Scrubbing means having to wait another dozen minutes or giving up on using the CAS entirely, which means more work for the grunts.

[Bulletpoint]

I wish PaperTiger had put the air support in one of the other missions. Seems Equeconoqueville is the only map where it's almost useless... simply no LOS for the FO.

Well, or that it would be possible to pre-plan it.

[YankeeDog]

Unless, of course, Paper Tiger's intent was to demonstrate how difficult it is to make good use of on-call CAS in a tight-quarters environment...

[Baneman]

Unless, of course, Paper Tiger's intent was to demonstrate how difficult it is to make good use of on-call CAS in a tight-quarters environment...

Yeh. In about 3/4 of the campaign missions where Air Support was available, I ended up not using it - for all of the reasons given in this thread - mostly because by the time it was due, I was too close to the target location.

[Bulletpoint]

Unless, of course, Paper Tiger's intent was to demonstrate how difficult it is to make good use of on-call CAS in a tight-quarters environment...

Well, not really. If he wanted to make it realistic, he could have made it possible to pre-plan the air support. Representing an air attack conducted well ahead of the ground troops even entering the area.

Especially since the mission is about attacking a specific town, so the target zone would be pretty well defined.

[YankeeDog]

Well, not really. If he wanted to make it realistic, he could have made it possible to pre-plan the air support. Representing an air attack conducted well ahead of the ground troops even entering the area.

Especially since the mission is about attacking a specific town, so the target zone would be pretty well defined.

Not exactly.

The type of advance prep by air strike you're describing was generally done well ahead of the Forward Line of Contact on the ground. In CM terms, this means they'd be over before friendly forces ever arrive on the map.

Nor did local commanders on the ground have specific control over where and how these strikes went in. At best, a ground commander might be able to request that aircraft drop ordnance and/or strafe in the general vicinity of town X or crossroads Y at approximately time Z, but nothing like "target your bombs on this specific 8m x 8m square at exactly time HH:MM" as you can do with pre-planned airstrikes in CMBN.

The most realistic way to portray this type of advance air prep in a CM scenario is to put a few bomb craters on the map, damage and/or destroy a few buildings, and adjust the defending force appropriately to assume a few of the defending positions have been damaged or destroyed by airstrikes. No player control over timing or specific target at all.

Arguably, Point Target pre-planned airstrikes are the least realistic in CMBN, since they allow the player to direct an airstrike at a very specific point at a very specific time, anywhere on the map. At least with non-preplanned, the player has to go to the work of getting an FO into a place where he can see the target point, and deal with the uncertainty of a variable time delay.

[Bulletpoint]

Not exactly.

The type of advance prep by air strike you're describing was generally done well ahead of the Forward Line of Contact on the ground. In CM terms, this means they'd be over before friendly forces ever arrive on the map.

Nor did local commanders on the ground have specific control over where and how these strikes went in. At best, a ground commander might be able to request that aircraft drop ordnance and/or strafe in the general vicinity of town X or crossroads Y at approximately time Z, but nothing like "target your bombs on this specific 8m x 8m square at exactly time HH:MM" as you can do with pre-planned airstrikes in CMBN.

The most realistic way to portray this type of advance air prep in a CM scenario is to put a few bomb craters on the map, damage and/or destroy a few buildings, and adjust the defending force appropriately to assume a few of the defending positions have been damaged or destroyed by airstrikes. No player control over timing or specific target at all.

Arguably, Point Target pre-planned airstrikes are the least realistic in CMBN, since they allow the player to direct an airstrike at a very specific point at a very specific time, anywhere on the map. At least with non-preplanned, the player has to go to the work of getting an FO into a place where he can see the target point, and deal with the uncertainty of a variable time delay.

I see your point, but I don't see why the player cannot play the role of both high and low level command at the same time. Just like we order in detail both the battallion commander and the lowly scout team.

Targeting a single action square is pushing it though, I agree.

[Bulletpoint]

Oh, and about air support being done before friendly forces even arrived on the map, I agree, but I saw it as an abstraction.

[YankeeDog]

The problem isn't with the player assuming both high and low levels of command; this is definitely part of the game and I have no issue with this. In this game, you are simultaneously the Squad Sgt., the Platoon Lt., Company Cpt., in many cases the Battalion Lt. Col. and in some capacities even the Regimental and higher level COs.

My issue is with the level of specificity that the player is able to control air strikes. When a WWII Divisional Commander requested Air Strikes to support a planned attack, he didn't specify the precise target point for each aircraft as can in CMBN. At best, the commander could specify a broad target area like "Town X" or maybe "The forested ridgeline 1km north of Town X."

What I would like to see is a pre-planned only option for air strikes that allows the player to control the target zone in a broad fashion. So the player would be able to specify, say, a 200m minimum radius circle for the air strikes, but nothing more more specific than this. Attacking planes would bomb and strafe within that circle randomly, with some chance of pilot error leading to attacks outside the specified area, especially for low-quality pilots.

Anway, that's how it would work if I ran the circus...

[Bulletpoint]

Anway, that's how it would work if I ran the circus...

I think your ideas sound very sensible. I can't see how a FO would direct an airplane to strafe a single building in a town or a point on a hedgeline, at least without laser targeting technology.

With artillery, it makes sense that it's a gradual process with spotting rounds, but the aircraft can't drop "spotting bombs".

Any way, until they hire you, you'll have to contend with the good company here in the peanut gallery

[Michael Emrys]

I can't see how a FO would direct an airplane to strafe a single building in a town or a point on a hedgeline, at least without laser targeting technology.

I read something recently that kind of threw me for a loop. An article in a magazine stated that in the last stage of the war light observation planes in the USAAF were fitted with smoke rockets that they could fire on identified enemy locations that would serve as a visual cue to aid the fighter-bombers in finding the targets. I was aware that this was done in SE Asia in the '60s-'70s, but this was the first I had heard of it being practiced during WW II. Until I can find some corroborating evidence, I will remain skeptical of the claim. I post it here in case anybody has come across such information.

Michael

[Ithikial_AU]

Post my thoughts yonks ago in another CAS discussion thread but I'm sort of with on the same mind set as Yankee Dog. I think preplanned CAS should be allowed to account for well planned attacks with defined target areas worked out by the higher ups before a ground operation commences. The player would have to set all their CAS orders during the deployment phase including a 'scheduled time' (not true time) for the aircraft to arrive. That planing is fixed for the entire scenario and can't be altered, meaning you have to work around that bit of planning on your end for the entire battle and as we all know, no plan survives contact with the enemy so would be a double edge sword. If the player elects not to set CAS orders during deployment or aircraft are available from reserve only, then perhaps they become roaming free agents like CMRT. Modern era... very different story.

But like Yankee Dog I'm just a forum poster so will say what I think and get back to killing my own pixeltruppen in suicidal charges.

[Harsmith]

Well there is always the infamous purple smoke round. As this hasn't been explicitly modeled in CM, I view the point target command as being an abstraction of this - at least in MG.

[YankeeDog]

Well there is always the infamous purple smoke round. As this hasn't been explicitly modeled in CM, I view the point target command as being an abstraction of this - at least in MG.

The "purple smoke" CAS call as presented in the film is largely a myth. Smoke was sometimes used to help direct air attacks, but this was nowhere near as fast or precise as is depicted in the film.

Smoke is not a great way to direct precision airstrikes There's a lot of smoke and haze on the typical battlefield, and it also moves around with the breeze; even with the use of colored smoke it's still very prone to error.

[Daroc]

If a CAS mission was called would not the forwardmost unit wait till well after the area is bombed to move into it.

This is with the idea that the mission was planned before the battle started for a certain time at a certain place ie. preplanned target.

If it was called from the spotter I would wait till the fireworks are over till moving in.

I know that there was strafing/bombing runs on friendlies whenever a CAS mission was called and executed wrongly.