Extra Ammo: How much is too much?

[Doug Williams]

Started discussing this with Baneman in a recent QB we just started. I wasn't sure if there was a fatigue penalty for giving squads/teams extra ammo from trucks/halftracks via the Acquire command. Baneman told me there is, and I'm inclined to believe him. I'm also inclined to believe that I tend to give a bit too much extra ammo during my setup phase.

So...I'm curious how much extra ammo you guys tend to give your teams/squads, assuming an abundance of trucks/halftracks to draw from?

Let's take an American squad in 1944 CMBN for example:

We have a 12 man squad with 9 Garands, 2 BARs, and one Thompson, carrying 1301 rounds of .30cal M2 (for the Garands and BARs), and 180 rounds of .45cal for the Thompson.

Assuming a Meeting Engagement, and not a static defense, how much extra ammo would you allow this squad to Acquire during the setup phase?

A second example would be a Platoon HQ, with 2 M1 Carbines and 1 Garand, carrying 150 rounds of M1Car ammo and 104 rounds of .30cal M2. Would you give them any extra ammo?

How about Sniper teams?

Thoughts?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Started discussing this with Baneman in a recent QB we just started. I wasn't sure if there was a fatigue penalty for giving squads/teams extra ammo from trucks/halftracks via the Acquire command. Baneman told me there is, and I'm inclined to believe him.

I thought it did too. Then someone showed me a test they did a while back that proved it made no difference at all. But that test was before 3.0. Perhaps it has been changed? The reason I thought it did make a difference is because it does in something... not released yet.

[Baneman]

Damn, I'd hate to find yet another cherished belief is incorrect.

Now I'm going to have to test this.

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah, I always operated under the assumption that it did matter. Let us know the results of your testing.

[A Canadian Cat]

I guess it would be good to answer your actual questions eh?

We have a 12 man squad with 9 Garands, 2 BARs, and one Thompson, carrying 1301 rounds of .30cal M2 (for the Garands and BARs), and 180 rounds of .45cal for the Thompson.

I usually give them 1000 more rounds in a situation like this. 1000 is the maximum I ever give and then only to full squads or good sized MG teams.

A second example would be a Platoon HQ, with 2 M1 Carbines and 1 Garand, carrying 150 rounds of M1Car ammo and 104 rounds of .30cal M2. Would you give them any extra ammo?

Probably not. I don't find my HQ units running out of ammo much.

How about Sniper teams?

I like to give them a bit extra 50 if I can but 100 if I'm forced to. They shoot at a more measured pace but on a long battle if they don't get a bit more at the start they some times get close to running out.

For a SMG equipped squad I try to give them some more SMG amo to (100 rounds per SMG). If they are burning through their SMG ammo things are hot and that is a bad time to run out.

[Erwin]

My rule of thumb for initial load-out is for a SMG-equipped man to have around 300 rounds, with about 150-200 rounds per rifleman, and 500 rounds per BAR or MG. Maybe 2K rounds for a HMG. But, am curious - what would they have in RL?

The hard part is finding a way to give snipers 50-100 rounds since you usually have a min of 1000 rounds from trucks. It wastes a lot of time reducing ammo loads on trucks by giving to full squads in order to get to a level where a sniper can take 50-100 rounds. Hope we get a revamp of the ACQUIRE system to allow easier replenishment and also smaller amounts of ammo.

Agreed, it doesn't seem "right" that we can load up a two man team with several thousand rounds and have them run around like it's nothing. There should be stricter limits per man.

[YankeeDog]

We have a 12 man squad with 9 Garands, 2 BARs, and one Thompson, carrying 1301 rounds of .30cal M2 (for the Garands and BARs), and 180 rounds of .45cal for the Thompson.

Assuming a Meeting Engagement, and not a static defense, how much extra ammo would you allow this squad to Acquire during the setup phase?

Since Vanilla U.S. Rifle Squads lack a belt-fed SAW, I find that their ROF just isn't high enough to burn through their rifle caliber ammo all that quickly. If I have ammo in abundance, I might give each squad up to an additional 500, but in a meeting engagement or attack situation where my rifle squads are probably going to be spending a lot of their time moving rather than shooting, often I don't bother.

.45 ACP is a different story; I usually load my squads with as much SMG ammo as I can. SMG ammo goes fast in close-range fights. .45 ACP is relatively rare in vehicles and caches, so it usually ends up being just an additional ~50/squad, but I'll load them up to 300+/SMG if I have it.

A second example would be a Platoon HQ, with 2 M1 Carbines and 1 Garand, carrying 150 rounds of M1Car ammo and 104 rounds of .30cal M2. Would you give them any extra ammo?

I try to keep my Plt. HQs out of firefights, but if it's available, I like to give HQ teams an extra 50-100 M1 Car. The carbines actually have a higher ROF than the Garand, and if a Plt. HQ does get caught in a firefight, that 75 rnds./Carbine is only enough for 3-4 turns of shooting.

How about Sniper teams?

Rarely bother. They shoot slowly; I can't remember the last time I had a sniper team run out.

[Erwin]

Maybe things changed in 3.0 but I often had snipers run out if they only had 100 rounds. If you put em in a good spot, they'll keep firing at a decent rate.

[c3k]

I thought it did too. Then someone showed me a test they did a while back that proved it made no difference at all. But that test was before 3.0. Perhaps it has been changed? The reason I thought it did make a difference is because it does in something... not released yet.

I've done tests back to CMSF: it -does- make a difference. I'll test again and post.

[YankeeDog]

Maybe things changed in 3.0 but I often had snipers run out if they only had 100 rounds. If you put em in a good spot, they'll keep firing at a decent rate.

It probably depends on how you use them. I tend to be pretty careful with them as I find the intel I get from them as stealthy OPs at least as valuable as any kills they rack up.

So I tend to put them on a short cover arc to start, and then have them open up selectively when there are attractive targets. This probably keeps the typical ammo burn of my sniper teams relatively low.

[YankeeDog]

A note regarding heavy ammo and weapons loads:

For practical gameplay purposes, IME as long as units are moving through mostly open and flat terrain, the fatigue differences between a lightly loaded and a heavily loaded unit are marginal. Where it becomes noticeable is when you order units to slog their way through difficult terrain like marsh, heavy woods, etc. You can actually see the difference within a rifle squad if you split the teams -- the more heavily laden SAW team will fatigue faster than the rifle team(s).

[Erwin]

Re snipers, if one can place em in decent cover with a 300-600 yard LOS they can shoot fairly accurately all day and are very hard for the enemy to spot. Of course ideally they should be Regular or better.

I know what you mean re using em as scouts. But, if they have decent experience, Veteran or better, that may be a waste of their sniper capabilities if they are within a couple hundred meters of enemy.

[YankeeDog]

Oh, I use them as snipers eventually. Just not for the whole battle.

Part of what I like about using sniper teams as OPs is that as long as they don't shoot, you can actually put a sniper team in fairly poor cover and under most conditions and they won't get spotted until the enemy is very close. This allows you to gain observation from places the enemy doesn't expect. Everybody assumes the heavily forested treeline on top of the ridge in enemy territory is occupied, but players often barely give the small patch of brush in the middle of the open field a second look.

[MikeyD]

About over-acquiring - Don't forget 'buddy aid'. if your infantry are already at their weight limit they wont pick up the (place valuable weapon name here) from their fallen comrade while doing buddy aid.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've done tests back to CMSF: it -does- make a difference. I'll test again and post.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112094

The test results that are purported to show no significant difference (at least in Shock Force).

It will be interesting to see what you and Baneman come up with.

[Doug Williams]

Good discussion so far. I look forward to the test results.

I've had at least one sniper team run out of ammo in a PBEM CMFI battle. I had to run them over to some wounded so they could buddy aid more ammo. Then they went back and caused even more casualties. I think they wound up causing over 20 casualties that game.

[Erwin]

YankeeDog: Do snipers have some extra "hiding" capability? I thought they were treated just like any other inf in CM2.

I hold that specialized troops like snipers, engineers, scouts etc should always be of higher experience than the regular troops to account for extra training, but some here disagree with that.

[c3k]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112094

The test results that are purported to show no significant difference (at least in Shock Force).

It will be interesting to see what you and Baneman come up with.

You dare to quote a measly 2013 post? Here's my 2008 post! http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84592

Admittedly, it does not have my test in it. However, it references my 1km test track. I still have nightmares about that test. Really. It was that which has made me always send the men forwards!

I loaded a bunch of guys with every piece of ammo they could carry, and a bunch who had fired everything off, and a group with default ammo. Actually, a bunch of each. Then I set them off. Burdening caused early fatigue. I've rerun the test on occasion.

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

It was that which has made me always send the men forwards!

Good for you! It is important for the men's morale that they get their mail promptly.

Michael

[c3k]

Hush, or I shall wave my piston at you!

[YankeeDog]

YankeeDog: Do snipers have some extra "hiding" capability? I thought they were treated just like any other inf in CM2.

As far as I know there are no special stealth abilities for sniper teams, but AFAIK they are the only non-HQ, non-FO small team that has optics -- all sniper teams have a scoped rifle, and many carry binos (some don't; it depends on nationality and formation). This gives sniper teams much better spotting ability at distance than e.g. a 2-man scout team split off of a rifle squad and makes them ideal for forward observation duties.

[Erwin]

I know about the binocs, however, is it certain that the scope optics also makes a difference for spotting purposes (as opposed to shooting)?

[Doug Williams]

I also often use sniper teams for scouting duties, far more frequently than I purchase special scout teams or split scout teams off of squads. Unlike YD, I usually let mine shoot at will, right from the beginning.

Yea, Erwin, in QBs my sniper teams are always high quality, Crack or Elite. Makes a big difference.

Anyway, back to the original subject of this thread, looking forward to the fatigue test results.

I thought about it a bit more, and giving a ten man squad an extra 1000 rounds of rifle ammo would only increase the weight carried by each man by about 5lbs. 1000 rounds of battle rifle/LMG ammo would probably only weigh around 50lbs, according to a quick Google search.

[Baneman]

Well, the initial results of some very arbitrary testing last night ( I was pissed, ok ! ), had teams running at Quick over varying terrain - pavement, grass, ploughed field.

All teams reached Tired in the 3rd turn whether they had 1000 rounds or 2000 rounds. The guys in the ploughed field covered less distance ( about 700m as opposed to about 800m ) otherwise no difference was seen.

Obviously I'll still be doing some proper tests, but it looks like 1000 rounds extra among 4-5 men is not going to make as visible a difference as I thought it might.

[Doug Williams]

Thanks for your efforts, Baneman, and rest assured that my G.I.s will not be wanting for bullets in the game we just started. :-)