Annoying building LOS issues

[JasonC]

Perhaps CMx2 experts have long since learned how to handle the following issue, in which case instruction and how tos might be all I need. But so far I am finding it very frustrating, to the point where I consider building terrain simply busted in CMRT. Let me explain.

The men have individual positions within a house, which has individual windows. But the LOS tool comes out of a central action spot. I find no way to specifically direct placement of weapons, and the Tac AI does not handle it. Intelligently, or at all really.

Example. I have a two story masonry house with 3 windows along its south wall. Directly south of the house is a smaller, second house, opposite orientation of its long axis. This blocks the view directly south from the center window only. Western window has a perfect line of sight down a critical road to a ford site three or four blocks away. Eastern window has an angled line of sight over lower buildings and gardens to an important bridge site, also 3-4 blocks away but farther, as it is on a diagonal rather than aligned with the street grid.

Place a heavy MG team in the house, second floor. Face command to orient them. Check LOS with the tool. LOS to ford - blocked. To bridge - blocked. In each case, the tool line originates in the very center of the house. There is no way to set up the single HMG to fire down the road to the ford. Even if there were, there would be no way to reposition to the eastern window as an alternate fire position, to cover the bridge.

Real MG fire schemes use keyholes, long narrow lanes of fire, and cross them to prevent enemy movement. But LOS out of buildings is so crappy and so unpredictable, the only locations that might be able to fire are ones with wide LOS facing the whole enemy side of the field from every window - which means lousy firing positions with no hard cover against any relevant point on the compass.

How am I supposed to set up anything like a realistic urban setting fire scheme with these crappy tools?

[c3k]

Set the team with a face command to the southwest as part of the movement command into the building. After they deploy, they will be in that location. Cover arc will focus them to the south.

[YankeeDog]

To be clear, the LOS tool is graphically represented as originating from the center of the action spot or building floor, but it actually shows you the LOF of the soldier(s) and/or weapon(s) in the team at that moment. If the line is blue then most of the weapons in the team (or the primary weapon in the case of heavy weapons teams and vehicles) have LOF to the spot. If the line is grey only a minority of team members and/or secondary weapons have LOF. If the line is red/black, nobody has LOF.

The above only holds for TARGET lines drawn from a unit's actual, current position. LOS/LOF checks from waypoints not yet occupied are estimated based on likely position(s) once the unit reaches that point and are therefore not as reliable.

But anyway, I agree that that issue you describe this is a "proud nail" in the current engine state. Tripod MG teams especially often have issues with positioning in buildings, a problem which is compounded by the fact that HMGs have a longer setup time in buildings so you can't fix it as quickly if there's a problem. It's an area where some incremental improvements have been made over the various upgrades/patches, but there are definitely still issues.

One trick that sometimes helps is to make sure you issue the FACE command by clicking on the specific action spot you want the weapons team to have LOS/LOF to. The FACE command is actually somewhat dependent upon the specific point you click rather than just the bearing, so clicking on a point for example 100m away may not yield the same weapon positioning as clicking on a point 500m along exactly the same line of bearing.

If this doesn't work, another trick I have discovered it to just play with issuing the FACE command in various directions away from your ultimate desired direction of engagement. This is generally useful only during the setup turn as otherwise you'd have to wait until the following orders phase to try a different FACE direction, which usually isn't practical.

Anyway, sometimes you will find that issuing a FACE order normal to, or even away from the ultimately desired engagement direction shifts the MG's position within the action square (or building floor) enough to give you LOF to the area you want. Then, on the following turn you can issue a new FACE order or cover arc to point the MG in the direction you actually want. Once a weapon with a deploy time like an HMG or mortar deploys it will *not* reposition within the action spot or building floor in response to new FACE or COVER ARC orders, but rather simply rotate on the mount, so MG will keep its desired position and LOF.

In the example you cite, I might try issuing a FACE order Southwest, or even due West, which should put the MG along the West wall of the building, and then check if this positioning gives the HMG LOF on the ford. If it does, then leave the MG as-is for Turn 1, and issue it a new FACE order on turn to the actually point the gun barrel at the ford.

Admittedly, a kludgy workaround, but it often works for me. Hoping this area gets more love in a future update.

[JasonC]

"Movement command into the building" - this is at set up.

And what do you mean by "at that location"?

There is no way all 6 men can see out one window, of course. But are you saying your method will ensure that is where the MG will go? Will it ensure placement of the LMG within a half squad?

[YankeeDog]

Will it ensure placement of the LMG within a half squad?

IME, the "best" weapon of an infantry team will usually be positioned to get LOF to the specific action spot clicked when you issue a FACE order.

It's also important to know that individual soldiers within an infantry team will try to reposition themselves to gain LOF to a known target. So if the soldier carrying the LMG isn't in the "right" window to have LOF to an enemy spotted by another member of the team, give him a few seconds and he will probably try to reposition in order to gain LOF. You see this happen especially in buildings.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work for HMGs; once they are deployed on the tripod, HMGs will never reposition within the action spot/building floor without player input (by first packing up and then issuing a new face or cover arc, followed by a new deploy order).

[JasonC]

The tips are helpful, keep them coming.

In my last outing, I had a full squad on the 4th floor of a tall rowhouse, with gable style windows front and back, two per wall. It was a 2 LMG German motorized Pz Gdr squad. In real life they should have been ungodly terrors up there. Wide field of view to the whole left side of the map from one wall, equally wide to the other side from the opposite wall. Brick cover, not just concealment. Short movement able to break LOS to either side. A pair of buzzsaws either way, K98s to keep up pins and check anyone approaching the opposite way. Too high to grenade out. Solid wall with no openings in the direction facing the enemy, giving total cover to his frontal overwatch.

Commander immediately downstairs, with MP 40s and grenades out the second floor windows, nearby smaller buildings covering them. 2nd squad on the ground floor to prevent assault, sweep the streets, if necessary climb up and replaces losses.

This position was meant to interlock its 45 degree side lob fields of fire with 2 HMG teams in some woods 350 yards away to the south, and a single 2 LMG squad in a lower building 120 yards to the north, which between them could sweep all approaches to that high rowhouse. It was the fortress center of the defense. The enemy was pure infantry, no tanks, and no direct fire guns could bear on the position. Mortars maybe, but they could just descend and wait it out if that happened.

But they fired practically not at all, all game. I tried face commands, split and reform, descend and come back up with face commands, etc. They frequently rotated to face the south windows and wound up with a LOS line 2 meters long that stopped at the wall, as though they couldn't reach the windows. That way they at most had a line five degrees wide straight normal to the wall, at high elevation, like they were trying to shoot from the wrong side of the room. In the other direction, maybe 30 degrees to either side of normal to the north wall, was it, and those lines grey, even for a half squad with 1 MG.

Beautiful and carefully planned position reading the map literally. Completely brain dead Tac AI, contributing nothing. No obvious way to order the right orientation, and not for lack of trying. They fiddled for twenty minutes - literally - and accomplished nothing.

I'd say this needs major overhaul. Exact representation of partial LOS for some men not all, and of each window, is only more realistic if the individual man positioning is intelligent. If just the face command solved it that would be enough. It doesn't now, at least in any clear and intuitive way.

[c3k]

For more precise placement in a building, break down to teams.

At set up should be easy to see if it works. No deployment delay.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Good points, but a small clarification.

To be clear, the LOS tool is graphically represented as originating from the center of the action spot or building floor, but it actually shows you the LOF of the soldier(s) and/or weapon(s) in the team at that moment. If the line is blue then most of the weapons in the team (or the primary weapon in the case of heavy weapons teams and vehicles) have LOF to the spot. If the line is grey only a minority of team members and/or secondary weapons have LOF. If the line is red/black, nobody has LOF.

In the case of crew-served weapon teams -- at least those which are capable of being deployed such as tripod-mounted MGs -- the Target tool shows LOS from the point of view of the gunner exclusively, so it should not be possible to get a grey line.

It's also important to know that individual soldiers within an infantry team will try to reposition themselves to gain LOF to a known target. So if the soldier carrying the LMG isn't in the "right" window to have LOF to an enemy spotted by another member of the team, give him a few seconds and he will probably try to reposition in order to gain LOF. You see this happen especially in buildings.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work for HMGs; once they are deployed on the tripod, HMGs will never reposition within the action spot/building floor without player input (by first packing up and then issuing a new face or cover arc, followed by a new deploy order).

Yes, the TacAI is very good at this. It would be nice of these routines were usable against terrain as well as enemy units.

[RockinHarry]

I oftentimes succeed with covered arc settings, sometimes with 180° and just bit of an overlap to the actual desired map spot. The ptroopers appear to distribute better along windows and wall openings (with 180°) this way. Sometimes it´s better not to mess with FACE and covered arcs at all and let the AI do as it sees fit. Think I also had useful results with long range 360° CA from within buildings. It´s what´s used in AI Plans (ambush range x) as well.

[JasonC]

The tac AI is very good at this? I just spent 30 minutes looking for decent starting positions for my MG teams in a town fight. I needed to find a dozen. I found none. Not one. Face routinely failed to produce a clear LOS to the actually selected point, and when it did the cone was very narrow, and the actual placement of the weapon insanely stupid. With the advice provided I was able to see down the road to the ford, for example - with a field of view that was 60 meters wide at 250 meters distance. The MG at the southwest, south facing window was actually placed between the corner and the window, so it had to look out slight eastward or due south - despite an actual Face location just west of due south.

Basically, this uncontrolled micropositioning is --- pants.

[AttorneyAtWar]

The tac AI is very good at this? I just spent 30 minutes looking for decent starting positions for my MG teams in a town fight. I needed to find a dozen. I found none. Not one. Face routinely failed to produce a clear LOS to the actually selected point, and when it did the cone was very narrow, and the actual placement of the weapon insanely stupid. With the advice provided I was able to see down the road to the ford, for example - with a field of view that was 60 meters wide at 250 meters distance. The MG at the southwest, south facing window was actually placed between the corner and the window, so it had to look out slight eastward or due south - despite an actual Face location just west of due south.

Basically, this uncontrolled micropositioning is --- pants.

At this point I think you need to provide screenshots, its hard to visualize what you are talking about.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The tac AI is very good at this?

Not at what you are doing, i.e. looking for LOS to terrain. It is very good at moving men around to obtain or maintain LOS to an enemy unit that at least one member of the friendly has already spotted.

[c3k]

It can be frustrating when the terrain doesn't conform to your plan.

[JasonC]

c3k - I am perfectly willing to have my plan conform to the terrain. If the frickin terrain would tell me what is visible from where, in some remotely intuitive or realistic way.

Vanir - understood, fair distinction.

[cool breeze]

while we are on the subject of building LOS and LOF, just a friendly reminder that it would be great to be able to target windows/walls when we dont have LOS to the center of the building. I know the Ptroppen do fine at engaging targets the see in the windows but I wish I could area target the windows.

JasonC, did you run though the scenario to test out how your defence did once the enemies showed up? I find that a lot of the time when Im trying to figure out LOS/LOF with the tool in cities I get frustrated, because it doesn't always work quite right. However if I just move the guys around based on what looks alright without the LOS tool, while I miss some good opportunities for area fire, the guys do a pretty good job at spotting threats and moving around in reaction, even if the LOS line wasn't working as expected.

[JasonC]

"JasonC, did you run though the scenario to test out how your defence did once the enemies showed up?"

No, I am not cheating. Also this is a human vs human quick battle, infantry only, on a randomly selected map. Which happens to be one with a water barrier in a town, perfectly sensible idea for the engagement (Russian assault scenario type), but just pants in practice because the defenders cannot select a single starting location for a single machinegun.

It has been literally 3 days since my opponent sent me the set up, and after 3 attempts I have yet to place a single team. I can't believe everyone has just been putting up with this state of things...

[AttorneyAtWar]

"JasonC, did you run though the scenario to test out how your defence did once the enemies showed up?"

No, I am not cheating. Also this is a human vs human quick battle, infantry only, on a randomly selected map. Which happens to be one with a water barrier in a town, perfectly sensible idea for the engagement (Russian assault scenario type), but just pants in practice because the defenders cannot select a single starting location for a single machinegun.

It has been literally 3 days since my opponent sent me the set up, and after 3 attempts I have yet to place a single team. I can't believe everyone has just been putting up with this state of things...

I have played the majority of scenarios in Red Thunder and a wide selection of the QB's with a friend and I can say I haven't had a problem as severe as yours. I think you may be exacerbating this a little, it would really help if you would post screenshots.

There is no doubt that LOS can be very fickle but usually there is a very good reason for LOS to be blocked, what is the time of day, do you have trees turned on? I have made stupid mistakes like that before.

[TheVulture]

It's also possible that there are bugs specific to one or two buildings, and if you encounter one or two in a typical battle you just chalk it up to one of those weird LOS quirks, but JasonC happens to have found a map using almost entirely those bugged buildings.

Not a very likely explanation, I admit, but it does seem as though there is an unusual problem on this map.

[c3k]

What qb map? What buildings are you trying to use and what terrain are you trying to target? (A quick screenshot with a few circles drawn would be a help.)

(And, c'mon: I thought my "conform" comment was damn good! )

Also...since you seem a fair-minded chap and don't/shouldn't want community help while the battle rages, do you want solutions posted, or wait until after the game is over?

[cool breeze]

It hadden't occured to me that that might have been cheating. For some reason I assumed you were playing against the AI. I suggest you do some city defences against the AI realtime or turn based with lots of skipping turns, trying to set up similar kinds of situations in similar terrain just to get a better sense of how LOS tool deductions translate into actual LOS LOF once guys are running around.

In general it helps to not place the HMGs in the buildings with complicated LOS where they might have to switch positions within the building, because they take so long to set up. If possible use LMGs for those roles and put the HMGs out of buildings, or in buildings where you know they won't have to switch around. If you do have to put the HMG in building with questionable LOS, just try to get in by the right window and dont worry to much about the exact position. Imagine the spotter is spotting through the window while the gunner shoots throught the loophole the squade just spent the last 3 seeming like 15 minutes making. Don't plan on the HMG being able to successfully redeploy from one of those windows to another once the bullets start flying.

Maybe just ask your opponent if he minds you playing an infantry only AI battle on the same map you are going to play. He understands your still learning the system, and I know Id be fine with that whether my opponent was new or an expert.

P.S. Oh and LOL at conform C3k good one. totally missed it the first time tho too sly

[JasonC]

c3k - the game can't even start, so not an issue. I literally can't get past the set up without resolving this.

Cool - you don't seem to understand the actual realistic design of MG fire schemes. Firing positions in real life are selected not just on the ability to see location X, but the ability to see entire avenues while also avoiding being seen by specific bits of cover likely to contain enemy overwatch. The whole point of such schemes is to block enemy movement in an interlocking manner. If everyone looks out the front windows straight ahead, the enemy just sets up his overwatch in his own front windows and suppresses the defending MGs before moving. That way lies sorrow. In addition such schemes are always designed with choices of positions that can break contact by short movements, and still fire on secondary axes after forced to do so.

What I am finding is that the quirks I have described drive reasonable locations for such a scheme to the vanishing point, leaving only (1) positions the entire enemy side of the field can see (2) positions that cannot see anything (3) positions that can only see small disconnected bits of no great importance.

I know exactly how I would actually defend a town that looks like this one if I could position the MGs for real. But with the quirks described above, my options seem to be sit in wood buildings (concealment not cover) directly facing the enemy with wide LOS, or see nothing. In real life, both are just different methods of suicide.

[SeinfeldRules]

I've tried to replicate some of the issues you've described here, but honestly haven't seen any game breaking issues. Not to say you aren't experiencing them, but rather I don't understand the specific issues described... screenshots or a map name might be helpful? Perhaps a specific building is mis-coded and the windows aren't being represented properly. Other wise, for the squad infantry, I've noticed that regardless of where the squad LMGs are physically in the building, as soon as you give a targeting order that they will reshuffle and place themselves in a position where both can fire at the target. The 4 story house you mentioned in your second example, I placed a PzGren squad in one, and though the LMGs both started in the middle of the top floor with no physical LOF, I had good LOS with the rest of the squad out the windows (with blind spots on the sides with no windows), and the LMGs immediately moved to the windows as soon as I gave a targeting order.

For HMG teams, playing around with the facing command will generally yield the desired effects. Sometimes it isn't intuitive though, as a facing command towards the corner of the building won't place the HMG in the corner... a little offset to either side is generally required. They do tend to "stick" to windows, so if you have a window in the corner of an otherwise blank wall, a facing order towards that wall will place the HMG in that corner. And there is some level of abstraction... an HMG that's "close enough" will still be able to shoot out a window even where it look likes it would physically hit the wall right next to it.

[womble]

I find that using cover arcs to set the direction you want the MGs to point sometimes produces more comprehensible results than plain "Face" commands. Also, cover arcs will prevent the pesky tripod-mounted MGs from swapping windows when you don't want them to.

[cool breeze]

I'm not sure what I said that made you think I dont understand realistic mg fire schemes. You might know from my other posts that I'm not a WW2 expert, but I have been playing CM since CMBB and CMx2 since CMSF, and I have plenty of experience setting up successful defenses with interlocking keyholed lanes of fire. In my experience the games spotting/LOS/LOF is more WYSIWYG than using the targeting tool indicates. Meaning if you have come up with a defence scheme that looks good as far as WYSIWYG, but doesn't seems good via the targetting line, it MIGHT still be good. But the game system isn't perfect so it hard to know. I gave what advice I could to try to make it work more often for you. Sometimes all you can do is put the guys in the second row of houses instead of the first to get cover from the front from the first row. Sometimes you just lie them down in the open right behind the house.

One thing that makes figuring out WYSIWYG tricky is that you cant move the camera low enough. its easy to think you can see over some stuff because the camera is some 6+ feet in the air, but your guys are lying down or kneeling which doesn't let them see over it. Sometimes grass or bushes on a crest that is past the draw distance for the grass or bush is in the way of LOS without you realizing it. getting the camera low and zooming in while looking around helps see some important foliage detail.

Oh and seeing around/over roofs is a little tricky, it helps to kind of imagine that all the roofs are kind of bigger than shown.

[cool breeze]

Another helpful thing you can do is move around the camera at the lowest level in the potential target area and see what windows you can see from where.