Has this happened to you?

[sfhand]

...

CM players would consider it perfectly normal and sensible if every rifleman in a squad carried spare magazines for the squad's SMG gunners instead of more rifle ammo for themselves. Nobody in WWII would have considered that anything but crazy.

(emphasis mine)

This is incredibly bad stuff, I actually feel bad that you took the time to think that up and write it...

[Erwin]

"CM players would consider it perfectly normal and sensible if every rifleman in a squad carried spare magazines for the squad's SMG gunners instead of more rifle ammo for themselves. Nobody in WWII would have considered that anything but crazy."

That certainly describes my style. I always feel it imperative to load up on 9mm (and usually still run out) and hardly ever run out of 7.62mm.

Maybe part of the problem is that nearly all CM2 scenario engagements end up being at rather short ranges due to terrain being designed for short LOS since the maps are generally small. HMG's are generally hard to position and use effectively (with taking casualties) cos they are so vulnerable at the short (200m and under LOS) ranges that seem to predominate.

Hope that as maps and scenarios get significantly larger, HMG's and rifles will again become more important.

[Sgt Joch]

interesting debate, but let's keep in mind:

1) no one knows how effective HMGs/LMGs/SMGs/Rifles, etc. are in a combat situation. All we really know is that they are less effective than on a range for a variety of reasons: stress, fear, adrenaline, confusion, visibility, spotting, etc., etc.

We had long discussions about the effectiveness of HMGs/LMGs after CMBN came out. As a result the accuracy/ROF of HMGs/LMGs and their suppression effect was increased. Is it more "realistic" now? probably, but again we have no real life empirical data to check again, just many anecdotes.

2) you also have other "game" issues that have an impact on the effectiveness of firearms, i.e:

a) players tend to be more aggressive with their "pixel truppens" than a RL commander would be with his troops, resulting in higher casualties;

"spotting" is easier in game than in RL, again making it easier to locate and fire on enemy pixeltruppens;

c) "pixeltruppens" tend to be more suicidal than real soldiers, continuing to carry out orders, i.e. charging at a HMG instead of going to ground when fired on.

and c) can be dealt with, i.e. making it harder to spot the exact location of enemy troops, making the pixeltruppens auto-cancel orders/be suppressed or pinned more easily, but it would make for a more frustrating game.

Not much you can do about a) though.

[A Canadian Cat]

That certainly describes my style. I always feel it imperative to load up on 9mm (and usually still run out) and hardly ever run out of 7.62mm.

a) players tend to be more aggressive with their "pixel truppens" than a RL commander would be with his troops, resulting in higher casualties;

@Erwin's example above fits right in. Don't get me wrong if I have a source of 9mm at the beginning of the game I distributed it around as best as I can but I also stock up on MG rounds too. I find by the end of the game my German MG42 equipped squads that I started out with 2500 rounds are often drifting down to 500, 300, 100 rounds sometimes. My play style is go slow and fire a lot at as long a range as possible. By the time I get there I want the enemy to be gone one way or another.

Of course my guys got caught just yesterday in close against a Thompson wealding enemy - what a mess. The first team got to close and lost a man but managed to take out some of his mates and scare him off. But sadly for me he ran right into another team of mine trying to flank that position. I watched in horror as he wiped them out - all within 20m. So, much much to close.

[Childress]

"spotting" is easier in game than in RL, again making it easier to locate and fire on enemy pixeltruppens;

c) "pixeltruppens" tend to be more suicidal than real soldiers, continuing to carry out orders, i.e. charging at a HMG instead of going to ground when fired on.

and c) can be dealt with, i.e. making it harder to spot the exact location of enemy troops, making the pixeltruppens auto-cancel orders/be suppressed or pinned more easily, but it would make for a more frustrating game.

And you'll end up with CMBB. That game's challenging if punitive morale system is still recalled with fond nostalgia by some hardcore members. You realize that, right?

[JasonC]

Sgt Joch wrote "no one knows how effective HMGs/LMGs/SMGs/Rifles, etc. are in a combat situation." I call horsefeathers. Combat is not something that has never happened or occurs on the dark side of the moon. We know what happens in combat. (Many people here have been in combat themselves, many more have studied it professionally, etc). If you don't know something, ask, but don't pretend that nobody else does.

[sfhand]

CMRT Manual lists the following effective ranges for smgs:

PPSh 250m

PPS 42 200m

Mp40 100m

while all rifles are listed with effective ranges of 500m (iron sights) and 800m (optics).

I don't see an argument saying rifles should outclass smgs @ 150m as one BF will or should take seriously until one has soundly demonstrated the game is using the wrong effective ranges for smgs.

[sfhand]

Page 23 of this pdf has some interesting information:

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2eff2.pdf

including:

"the average firer has a higher overall chance of hitting an enemy at 200

yards with a Sten than with a rifle."

and

An extra trial to confirm the lethality of Sten bullets at 300 yards was

performed with ¾" deal targets covered in two thicknesses of webbing. All hits were "throughs".

[Lethaface]

In my experience rifles are very far from being useless in CMx2. I notice their absent when playing with Russian SMG only formation.