Childress Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 That is indeed the plan. The mystery part is that they're 'working on it'. Doesn't seem terribly complicated. The AI's not going to use it anyway. One suspects it will be a game changer in h2h matches. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 That is indeed the plan. The mystery part is that they're 'working on it'. Doesn't seem terribly complicated. The AI's not going to use it anyway. One suspects it will be a game changer in h2h matches. And this is what I fear. A positional game where both sides are afraid to move and the winner is the one who ran to objective faster. Ambush should rarely be a guaranteed success and should require discipline and coordination. Just pointing a gun in a given direction is not ambush and there is no reason why those doing that should remain hidden. Also, bear in mind that -from the soldier point of view - in majority of CM scenarios the contact with enemy IS expected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_prince Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I can't really understand why hide should work well with target arc. Hide is basically the 'face in the dirt doing your best to be invisible' command and target arc is the 'watch this specific area, slightly better situational awareness, engage only what comes into your arc' command. If people are having problems with their ambushes it's probably because the terrain isn't suitable; they've got unrealistic expectations of how close the enemy can get without their own guys getting spotted or just dumb luck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 ...and target arc is the 'watch this specific area, slightly better situational awareness, engage only what comes into your arc' command. ... Uh, no, this is what I also thought when I started playing CMBN and was rapidly disabused. It is simply an "engage only what comes into your arc" command. Units maintain a 360degree situational awareness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 If people are having problems with their ambushes it's probably because the terrain isn't suitable; they've got unrealistic expectations of how close the enemy can get without their own guys getting spotted or just dumb luck. This. And in this case 'harder than easier' is definetly better for the game -until -in some future -engine is able to simulate more complex situations. I think BF shouldn't allow to transfer more decision making from tactical SI (despite all its imperfections) to the player. We already see BAD ideas like squad formations (that would result in player's meta knowledge removing any uncertainty from the game). It is just a matter of time someone asks BF to enable FPS mode and shoot enemies manually - for more control. BAD direction in my opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 The complaint about ambush seems to have a large element of observer bias involved. When it works it works without making a strong impression, when it doesn't work people notice. So they tend to forget the 20 times that it worked while the 5 times that it didn't are burned into their memory. And when it works to their disadvantage they don't see it as a successful enemy ambush but as a spotting bug for their own troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 And this is what I fear. A positional game where both sides are afraid to move and the winner is the one who ran to objective faster. Many complain that CM in its current state favors the attacker. A cleaner, more usable Ambush routine- which Steve announced recently- may contribute to the cure. If the complaints are legit. Now hiding defenders with a CA lie prone with their faces in the mud. Neighboring units, an HQ, don't alert them to the threat. Text says they're peeking, but they really aren't in any useful way. As is, setting up an Ambush leaves a lot to be desired. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Guys... I know I mentioned South Park: Stick of Truth earlier, and I have to say... I am surprised by how good it is! It is a very well done game overall. Yes, it's southpark so it's filled with fart jokes and crap like that, but it is a very solid game. It'll tie me over until red thunder is released at least 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 As to the topic about ambushing: Here are two pictures that symbolise the difference between hiding and ambushing in my mind: Ambushing: Hiding: To me the difference is that if troops are hiding, they are nose down behind cover and not actively looking for the enemy, basically just doing their best to never be discovered. Ambushing soldiers, however, are doing their darndest to remain still and out of sight whilst still actively looking for the enemy. To me, the way the game handles these two situations right now is not satisfactory. If the troops are ordered to hide, they are harder to spot, but they also are useless at spotting and won't open fire at the enemy. If they are not ordered to hide, but use a target arc, they are not any harder to spot than any other troop that just happened to be in the same area. I think ambush should represent the troops actually making more of an effort than usual to conceal themselves using the surroundings while still staying alert to the enemy presence. Well, that's just my 2c anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Oddball, go to post #8: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113650&highlight=AMBUSH 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Well, ambush of that sort should take some time to prepare. It should also take discipline and training to execute well. I also can't see ways to avoid /counter the ambush real soldiers would have. CM AI won't peek inside the building and throw grenades before actually allowing anyone inside - they will walk in blindly. One minute order cycle can also make ambush order more devastating than it should.The link above: If BF really thinks about ambush/other order combo they might consider 'on contact fall back' order to counter it a bit and also making soldiers with the 'hunt' order more likely to spot enemies. Such doubts. The quality of the H2H game is at stake and I see the 'ambush' order as a potential way to ruin it. Many complain that CM in its current state favors the attacker. Really? Maybe against defending AI. In a h2h game the attacker has no chance without significant numbers/quality/support advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Very happy that there will be a new Ambush routine. Thank you... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 db_zero, Group opprobrium?! Regards, John Kettler Group opprobrium? I had to google and consult the online library to figure out what that means... On the topic of a new ambush command. I like that. Going to change the game quite a bit and going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Very happy that there will be a new Ambush routine. Thank you... At some point. It's not in now and certainly won't be for Red Thunder. But I do hope it will get in sooner rather than later. It's the sort of thing that needs an extended period of time for testing as it involves TacAI and "weights". You have no idea how frustratingly long it takes to get those things tweaked. Heck, we're still tweaking things that have been in for years! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Oddball, go to post #8: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113650&highlight=AMBUSH thanx, completely missed that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 You have no idea how frustratingly long it takes to get those things tweaked. Actually I do...kind of. I'm not a programmer, but I have worked on complex systems and well know how their parts can interact to produce the most maddeningly frustrating "surprises". There have been times when after struggling with something for far longer than I had ever intended, I simply threw up my hands and walked away. I hope you don't have to do that. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Actually I do...kind of. I'm not a programmer, but I have worked on complex systems and well know how their parts can interact to produce the most maddeningly frustrating "surprises". A good example: the Challenger disaster in 1986. A few lousy o-rings... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 A good example: the Challenger disaster in 1986. A few lousy o-rings... And a project manager who would not heed the danger signals and was more concerned with looking good by keeping on schedule. Should have been stood against a wall and shot. Pretty much a similar story happened to the Columbia. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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