The Bloody Battle of Tilly Tough read?

[John Kettler]

I'm slogging my way through the, to me, morass that Ken Tout wrote. Even with my brain in sufficient working order that, for the first time in a long time, I was able to read a techno thriller start to finish, follow what was happening and carry through to the end while understanding what happened to whom and why, when I revisited Mr. Tout, I still was stuck in reader's perdition.

Is it just me, or is The Bloody Battle of Tilly simply a very tough, demanding read? The detail and the way he tells the story are amazing, but for some reason, my brain can't handle more than a few pages and I can't recall where I left off when I come at it the next time. The material simply isn't staying in my brain.

Am betting at least several people here have read it, right? Your thoughts, please.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Blackcat]

Mr. Kettler,

It isn't just you, I had similar experiences when reading Ken Tout's work. He has a great stories to tell, he just doesn't tell them very well. That said it is in my view well worth persevering because he does do detail from the sharp end and you can get a very good idea of what life and combat was like for a Brit tanker in 1944.

If you want a change, and an easier read, but on similar themes I recommend "Armoured Guardsmen" by Robert Boscawen published by Pen and Sword Books (ISBN 0 85052 748-1). This gives the view of a young officer in Guards Armoured from end of June '44 through till May '45, including taking part in XXX Corps' drive on Arnhem.

P.S. You said, "Mr. Tout", I think you should have said Dr. Tout. Post-war he continued his education and became a noted Gerontologist.

[altipueri]

This Tout? :

Ken Tout, who served as a tank gunner and tank commander in the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry in Normandy in 1944, described the effect of mounting a 17-pounder in the Sherman:

The Firefly tank is an ordinary Sherman but, in order to accommodate the immense breech of the 17-pounder and to store its massive shells, the co-driver has been eliminated and his little den has been used as storage space. ... The flash is so brilliant that both gunner and commander need to blink at the moment of firing. Otherwise they will be blinded for so long that they will not see the shot hit the target. The muzzle flash spurts out so much flame that, after a shot or two, the hedge or undergrowth in front of the tank is likely to start burning. When moving, the gun's overlap in front or, if traversed, to the side is so long that driver, gunner and commander have to be constantly alert to avoid wrapping the barrel around some apparently distant tree, defenceless lamp-post or inoffensive house.

[Broadsword56]

Agree with both of you on Tout's book about Tilly.

I couldn't believe how he managed to make the thing so dry and boring.

I think he was best when he stuck to his first-person accounts of being a tanker in Normandy, and not trying to be a historian telling the bigger story of a campaign.

[umlaut]

I haven´t read "The Bloody Battle of Tilly ", but think "Tank!" is an absolutely marvellous and well written description of what is was like to go to war in a Sherman.

To me it sounds strange that he should be capable of writing something boring. But perhaps it depends on the subject.

[Michael Emrys]

I haven´t read "The Bloody Battle of Tilly ", but think "Tank!" is an absolutely marvellous and well written description of what is was like to go to war in a Sherman.

Same here.

To me it sounds strange that he should be capable of writing something boring. But perhaps it depends on the subject.

Or his approach to it? Sometimes writers change their approach when addressing a new subject and sometimes it is disastrous.

For pretty good renditions of the British battles in Normandy, I'd recommend the Over the Battlefield series by Ian Daglish. I especially enjoyed Operation Bluecoat, about which I previously knew approximately nothing.

Michael

[Broadsword56]

Yes Daglish does an extraordinary job too with his Operation Epsom book -- loaded with maps, then-and-now comparisons, and an overview that tells the broader story but keeps you right down with the small-unit and individual stories at the same time.

[John Kettler]

Yes, we're all talking about that Ken Tout. I must say I'm heartened that my reading woes re the Tilly book aren't unique to me. Perhaps, this means I'll be able to read and follow other military history and simply treat this as the slog it is. Tank! has been on my acquisition list for quite some time. Appreciate the suggestions regarding more approachable books on CW combat ops, a subject in which I'm anything but well read.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Have some excellent news to report about my nonfiction reading abilities these days. In reading Price's phenomenal (what a writer!) The War Magician (about Jasper Maskelyne, the magician who practically invented large scale camouflage and deception for the British in WW II), I was thrilled to find that I can finally read a nonfiction book, follow the story from one reading session to another and retain what I've read! Given this, I can but conclude the problem really is in how the Tilly book is written.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Los]

I too have Ken Tout's Tilly book. I read it a few years ago and came to the exact same conclusion. All the gritty detail but little big picture to put it into context and more importantly, no decent maps! A shame as I really am interested in this battle and there is so little about it out there.

Los

[John Kettler]

Los,

Appreciate your feedback. Am starting to think there may be some sort of typography and/or book layout issue as well. Whatever's going on, the book doesn't scan well, further adding to the load on the reader.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

On the plus side, I've finished reading The War Magician and recall much of it! Sadly, it has no notes and no blbliography, for what was obviously a deeply researched book ranging from family genealogy to battle plans, engineering, stage magic techniques, espionage, communication intercept and more. Still, it'll be quite some time before I take on Tout's Tilly again.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Los]

All,

I found another decent book about Tilly. It's called "Tilly-sur-Seulles 1944" by Stephane Jacquet (isbn10: 2840482606). It is a Hard Cover Large Format book, 415 pages. It is in both French and English, 100s of pictures (including then and now shots) and many maps. Large amounts of detail on the fighting, and first person accounts. On every page the French text is in the left column the English text in the right column. The big picture can be a little difficult to follow esp with the French & English, which end up not being quite in line with each other so a map on one page may be referring to English text on another page. However even with the many pictures it is not a picture book but a story of the battle.

I feel this book has a lot more value to the CMBN scenario designer than Tout's book since it at least has lots of maps, and pictures. There is good detail of the terrain, both in ww2 pictures and in what various spots look like in modern times (not much has changed it seems). It has an extensive bibliography (Tout is not referenced). You can get it for 50-60 USD from amazon sellers. I feel this was well worth the money.

Los

http://www.amazon.com/TILLY-SUR-SEULLES-7-26-JUNE/dp/2840482606/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384637277&sr=8-1&keywords=tilly+sur+seulles

[John Kettler]

Los,

That sounds like a cool book. Love first person accounts, and the absence of maps in Tout's book, not to mention problems reading what was provided, really galled me.

Plus, I could learn a little French! Already know some of the French military-technical terms. My favorite? Force de Frappuccino, the French strategic force. Okay, the spelling is a little bit different than what I presented!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Whenever I used to hear the term 'Force de Frappe' I used to envision the French air force penetrating Soviet air space at Mach 2 in order to drop chilled desserts in tall glasses on them. Those zany Frenchmen!

Michael

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

Better than being the inept lover who confused fromage with frottage!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Ha! In the Canadian film My Awkward Sexual Adventure there is a painful scene involving a breath mint.

Michael

[John Kettler]

For some unknown reason, I recently went back to my tormentor of the OP. Through the apparent union of progress in my recovery and one or more miracles, I'm rereading it, understand what I'm reading and am retaining it. This is over a period of days. Shockingly, I'm enjoying the book, too--warts and all. The lack of white space, especially between paragraphs, continues to gall, as does the fatal lack of maps. Nor am I particularly impressed with the oft low contrast and, I think at times, poorly chosen photos. What a waste! What I love about this book is the plethora of small unit and personal accounts, with my current favorite being a description of a determined Panzer Grenadier close assault on a tank in which they were crawling all over the tank and had to be driven off with hand grenades tossed from within the tank! Readers, especially non-grogs, should be careful of some of Tout's "facts" and descriptions. Some are odd, some distorted, and some are flat out wrong. This is particularly true of his discussion of German tank armament and mines.

People who think their CM casualties are too high would do well to consider the ones reported in the book. 300+ men went up Bourgebous Ridge, but only a handful returned. This despite fire support at something like 3 x the rate of WW I barrages raining down. In one unit, I believe, every officer including the Brigade Commander, bought it. Time and again mortar rounds landed in O Groups, generally killing or wounding all or most of the attendees. Platoons were run by sergeants, even corporals. Lieutenants of any sort had vanishingly short life expectancies, couldn't readily be replaced and rapidly became all but extinct as a breed.

Troops got strafed and bombed by the RAF, shelled by own artillery and even hit by an errant V-1! Artillery support couldn't be called in because the FOO copped it or the radios packed it in. In fact, based on what I'm reading, anyone seeking to model the battle would be well advised to find some way to take most or all of the CW radios (no reports of such issues with the German ones) out of play, for that is precisely what happened.  They broke down, failed because the batteries went dead, got wet or were jammed to uselessness by the electrical discharges from torrential storms. Even when the radios worked, British air support procedures took so long to handle because of the many echelons and attendant delays that the RAF missed out on a plum target--40 Panzers milling about atop the ridge, in plain sight. Time to get planes on the target? 10 hours, by which time the juicy target for the Tiffies had long since left! At Goodwood, the sole Air Co-Operation Tank was destroyed practically as soon as the battle began, taking with it the on-call air support. Also, over and over again the accounts discuss the paralyzing effects of the particularly glutinous (clay) and much reviled Normandy mud when wet and its tough qualities when trying to dig into it wet or dry. Mud not only paralyzed wheeled traffic on the formerly dirt roads but bogged down the narrow tracked British and Canadian armor wholesale, depriving the PBI of tank support. By contrast, he Germans had plenty of time to make elaborate defensive preparations when it was dry, whereas the British were largely doing their digging on the fly. So tough was the Normandy soil that units were ordered to leave their ETs behind and were issued full size picks and shovels! 

Tout makes several other points, both directly and via quotes. The first directly speaks to one of the longtime hot button issues for quite a few of us: the non-depiction in CM of the quite real tactical advantages the Germans gained by virtue of their so-called smokeless/flashless cannon shell propellants. The second has to do with the deliberate blowing up of stone houses to provide excellent cover and concealment. Think Cassino. The third is the lethality of the Nebelwerfer and its terrible effects on morale. The fourth is how hungry the CW troops got. This ought to figure into Fatigue and Morale levels.

All this, and I'm barely begun on chapter 4!

Finally, I had an idea for our redoubtable modders. Presently, when a lane is cleared of mines a sign goes up showing this has occurred. In reality, such lanes had white tape to define both sides of the cleared lane. Would it be somehow possible to create that or anything close to it in lieu of the signs? If so, that would be very cool.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sailor Malan2]

Tank! is a good read, but is a fictionalised (deliberately and acknowledged) account merging stuff across different people, and occasions. Of his history books, I have only read Falaise (a fine night for tanks). I found that one ok but haven't read it for some years. Of the 2, Tanks! Is the better story, as you would expect...

Of course, if he trained as a Gerontologist as someone said, he may be in touch to assess your score on his advanced mental acuity test!?

 

[John Kettler]

My copy of the OP book is on loan to my otherwise engrossed (major interior work going on at the house) brother George, so might I ask for someone's else's help who has the book? Am trying to track down the German nicknames for the Mark IV. Already have the "Red beard one," but I'm looking for the one which is analogous to calling a Sherman a Ronson. It occurs fairly late in the book when a Panzer captain whose name starts with "K" (Knoepel, something like that) is helping defend yet another fortified village. Believe his tanks are dug in, too. Would appreciate any and all help!

Sincerely,

John Kettler

[DesertFox]

"All,

I found another decent book about Tilly. It's called "Tilly-sur-Seulles 1944" by Stephane Jacquet (isbn10: 2840482606). It is a Hard Cover Large Format book, 415 pages. It is in both French and English, 100s of pictures (including then and now shots) and many maps. Large amounts of detail on the fighting, and first person accounts..."

That´s a good one. (Tilly-sur-Seulles by Stephane Jacquet) Indeed the best one on that topic. Also if you have time money and interest, don´t miss out on his work on Operation Bluecoat Vol. 1 XXX Corps operations (La Percée du Bocage 30 juillet - 16 août 1944 vol I) (La Percee du Bocage Vol 1) and the soon to be published Operation Bluecoat Vol. 2 VIII Corps operations (La Percée du Bocage 30 juillet - 16 août 1944 vol II).

Stephane Jacquet is the curator of the Tilly-sur-Seulles museum (https://www.tilly1944.com/association/) so you can be sure he knows his stuff.

As for Tilly la Campagne by Ken Tout, though a little dry to read I found nothing comparable with regards to depth and detail. No easy read however that´s for sure.

cheers

Edited April 10, 2017 by DesertFox