Documenting TOE Problems?

[Rokko]

Hi Folks,

we have a similar thread for uniform and texture problems that has been stickied. I thought I might be feasible to make something like it for the Tables of Organization and Equipment that are implemented in the game for the sake of historical accuracy, also considering there is a new module about to be released that will change some existing TOEs as far as I have understood (to add integral AA guns for instance). Usually these kinds of requests/reports have gone largely unnoticed but I personally have some interest in it considering I also use the game's editor very much.

I don't know very much about Allied TOEs unfortunately, but I have noticed quite a few oddities with German TOEs, which of course is somewhat understandable and sometimes maybe even unavoidable given the highly heterogenic organization of theoretically identically made up German formations.

[Rokko]

I will make a start with the German armored reconaissance batallion, but Heer and SS. It is already the one unit the user can modify the most with many options to choose which vehicles should be in which company. But unexplainably it has a four-company-set-up which, as I understand was very uncommon in Normandy. In fact I believe only the 116th PD had a four company recon bn. All other PDs had a five company recon bn with one additional armored infantry (SPW) company. It would make sense I believe to set this as the standard and let the user delete the fifth one if he wishes to do so.

My second issue is the armored Panzergrenadier batallion of the Waffen-SS. I am not entirely sure but I honestly believe this is a bug, because it has 4 PG companies and 1 weapons company. I have NEVER heard of any German use such a set-up and never read about ANY of the SS armored infantry batallions (there were only like 4 or 5) that used such a weird organization (weird for the Germans, only the British have such organizations).

[Rokko]

Also the SS Regimental Cannon companies should offer options for having 150mm heavy infantry guns instead of mortars or light infantry guns.

Also there is no option for 6 gun 105mm howitzer artillery units, which were definately in action with the II./SS-PzArtRgt. 12.

Most of this stuff I came across during my research about the 12th SS which I did for my 4x4km mastermap.

[Rokko]

I have kinda been talking to myself here so far but srew it, I'll roll with it

- German Pioneer Batallions for both Heer and WSS should have an option whether each company should be motorized or mechanized. Not all armored pioneer batallions in Normandy had only one mechanized company in it, some had two, the PLD even had 3 (all were mechanized).

- All Pioneer units from the Armor or Armored Infantry branches should have the option of having 2 LMGs per squad. Again, at least the 12th SS had 2 LMGs per pioneer squads in all its pioneer units.

[akd]

Also there is no option for 6 gun 105mm howitzer artillery units, which were definately in action with the II./SS-PzArtRgt. 12.

Self-propelled Howitzer Battery [medium] has 6x 105mm howitzers. The towed 6-gun batteries in 12. SS were an exception.

[JasonC]

Rokko - on recon, the standard layout was 2 companies of PSWs, 2 companies of infantry in SPWs, and 1 heavy company with SPWs carrying 75mm IGs and 81mm mortars.

1SS left one of its 2 PSW companies in Holland, so it would also only have 4 all told. But none had 3 SPW mounted infantry companies. (17SS had 3 infantry companies, but trucked, no SPWs).

On 6 tube *towed* batteries, there are all of 3 of them in theater, in II battalion of 12SS. But 6 tubes was standard for the SP batteries, those always had 6 Hummel or Wespe. That was partially meant as a margin for mechanical breakdowns, however. (6 was normal for 75m IGs and 81mm mortars, to be sure. Also 150mm Nebelwerfers).

As for the extra line infantry company in SS TOEs, that is wrong for Normandy certainly. There was only one unit and era that had that layout, 1SS for Kursk.

[Rokko]

First, thanks for replying to both of you.

Jason, for clarification, regarding recon that was what I was trying to say. I reread my original statement and it was somewhat misunderstandable. A five company set-up with 2 PSW, 2 SPW and 1 Hvy company was exactly what I was asking for. Right now, in the game we have 2 PSW, 1 SPW and 1 Hvy company.

I did not know about how 17th SS recon batallion was made up, but there is no recon batallion specially for the WSS Armored Infantry branch in the game. The way you describe it, it seems to be much like a motorized infantry batallion with 3 motorized infantry and 1 heavy weapons companies.

As for the, appearently irregular, 6-gun towed artillery battery that only 12th SS had, it could be portrayed by using a 6-gun-self propelled battery as a work-around, performance would probably be the same (in game terms, although I am not sure if there are any other differences other than the picture in the artillery menu), but adding a 6-gun-towed battery to the Artillery branch for the SS forces in game would probably require very little work, just saying.

Interestingly, I just checked something ingame real quick and actually found another TOE-bug. In the 4th (heavy) company of an SS-recon batallion the ATG-platoon is manned by Heer personell instead of SS.

[c3k]

Rokko,

Good work. I don't think others, myself included, want to add chaff to this thread. Unless we have something to add or say about the TOE issues, we'll be silent...but watching.

Ken out.

[Rocky Balboa]

Interestingly, I just checked something ingame real quick and actually found another TOE-bug. In the 4th (heavy) company of an SS-recon batallion the ATG-platoon is manned by Heer personell instead of SS.

You might want to post this in the Maps and Mods forums. They maintain a sticky thread there for reporting stock uniform model and texture problems.

[akd]

Interestingly, I just checked something ingame real quick and actually found another TOE-bug. In the 4th (heavy) company of an SS-recon batallion the ATG-platoon is manned by Heer personell instead of SS.

Already resolved in latest version, along with...other changes.

Note some panzer aufklärung battalions show 1.-4. companies instead of 1.-5. companies because they were formed on/converting to the new '44 freie Gliederung organization, which dissolved the 1st PSW company (wheeled) and moved the PSWs to the Stab und Stabskompanie.

[Rokko]

Already resolved in latest version, along with...other changes.

That is good to hear.

Note some panzer aufklärung battalions show 1.-4. companies instead of 1.-5. companies because they were formed on/converting to the new '44 freie Gliederung organization, which dissolved the 1st PSW company (wheeled) and moved the PSWs to the Stab und Stabskompanie.

Does that mean this is not going to change? If this is true wouldn't it be appropriate to have the Stabskompanie ingame? Panzer Batallions DO have a support-company (=Stabskompanie) ingame.

Also, according to Zetterling:

Pz.Lehr: 5 companies

1SS: 5 companies (one left in Holland according to JasonC)

2PD: 5 companies

2SS: 5 companies

9SS: 5 companies

10SS: 5 companies

12SS: 5 companies

21PD: 5 companies (4 SPW & 1 SPW)

116PD: 4 companies

Also, any comment on the Pionier issue? Because I am not entirely sure about that one, I just found some numbers of LMGs in Pionier platoons that indicate 2 per squad instead of 1 despite the platoon being motorized rather than armored.

[Battlefront.com]

CM has a command structure limitation which, fortunately, doesn't come up very often. And that is each level of a formation must have a dedicated HQ Team in order to establish the chain of command. Those elements can only be in command of that level and downward through the chain of command.

Unfortunately, some formations (e.g. Pazeraufklärungs) have Companies where the command element is also the command element for the Battalion. The code can not simulate this dual command role, nor can it have a Battalion without a dedicated Battalion HQ at the Battalion level. There is no great way to work around this problem. My standard approach is to break up the HQ Company and assign the relevant pieces directly to the Battalion HQ. This is, effectively, how it worked in real life and is therefore the most accurate way around the problem. The only downside is that you don't have a Company label for those platoons. Fortunately the label is meaningless in game terms.

There are no plans to change the code. It would be very involved and it's simply not worth doing.

Steve

[Rokko]

I think I have understood what you tried to explain, but I am not sure this is really true for type of PzAufklAbt that fought in Normandy. Again, using 12th SS, the structure of its recon batallion was:

Abteilungs Kdr. [stubaf. Gerd Bremer] (Batallion CO)

Adjudant [Ostuf. Kurt Buchheim]

Ordonnanz Offz. [ustuf. Gauch]

Nachrichten. Offz. [ustuf. Schenk]

Tr. Artz [Ostuf. Dr. Schudok]

Tech. Führer Kraftfahrw. [ustuf. Ernst Schäfer]

1. Kompanie [Ostuf. Hansmann ]

2. Kompanie [Ostuf.Hauck]

3. Kompanie [Ostuf. Keue]

4. Kompanie [Ostuf. Beiersdorf] † 8.7.44

5. Kompanie [Hstuf. v. Reitzenstein]

Assuming this was true for the other German PD recon batallions in Normandy (12th SS's recon batallion seems to have been fairly regular which definately wasn't the case for many other of its subunits), each company has its own CO (an HQ unit in game terms) as well as a batallion CO with his own HQ unit.

So I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to another company between 2nd and 3rd company that is also armored infantry, just like 3rd company.

[Vanir Ausf B]

This has been reported before, but I might as well bring it up again since it's on-topic.

In the QB purchase screen for US armored infantry battalion all of the vehicles in the headquarters company are missing, including the mortar halftracks and the entire assault gun platoon.

[akd]

Also, according to Zetterling:

Pz.Lehr: 5 companies

1SS: 5 companies (one left in Holland according to JasonC)

2PD: 5 companies

2SS: 5 companies

9SS: 5 companies

10SS: 5 companies

12SS: 5 companies

21PD: 5 companies (4 SPW & 1 SPW)

116PD: 4 companies

Zetterling provides a snapshot of organization (sometimes only authorized organization) generally for the end of May / 1st of June (but even earlier in at least one case). This does not reflect the actual organization of all of the divisions during the campaign, which was:

Pz.Lehr: 1. - 5. Companies

1SS: 2. - 4. Companies (1. Company left in Belgium awaiting SPW 250/9s)

2PD: 1. - 5. Companies

2SS: 1. - 4. Companies

9PD: 1. - 4. Companies

9SS: 1. - 5. Companies

10SS: 1. - 5. Companies

12SS: 1. - 5. Companies

21PD: 1. - 5. Companies

116PD: 1. - 4. Companies

All of these divisions had 2x Panzer-Aufklärung companies (most SPW 250-mounted, but some SPW 251-mounted). As noted above, the divisions with 4 companies had converted to the 44 org with the wheeled armored cars in the Stab & Stabskompanie. All I can say is that the missing Panzer-Aufklärung company is a known issue. Have patience.

I think I have understood what you tried to explain, but I am not sure this is really true for type of PzAufklAbt that fought in Normandy.

I think Steve is just saying that you can't have a Stabskompanie working as it did in real life in the game, that is with an administrative company HQ with subordinate combat platoons able to be assigned where needed (either to the battalion commander or to other companies), so he has instead in some cases assigned stabskompanie assets directly to the battalion HQ.

[Rokko]

Now that MG is out it might be time to revive this thread

First off, I am glad to see that the MG number per squad for the motorized Panzer Pionier companies in the Panzer Pionier batallions has been fixed.

It hasn't been for the regimental Pionier companies. I also glad that we now have the choice between Type 43 and Type 44 reconaissance batallions.

Also, in the MG overview a new formation is mentioned, called:

"Panzergrenadier Flak Platoon (Regimental)" (WSS only I believe)

I have yet to find that ingame, unless it is the supposed to be the standard Flak Battery ??

Also, I somehow suspect, this was supposed to be a company, not a platoon, because the 14th company in WSS Panzergrenadier regiments usually was a Flak company.

[akd]

Now that MG is out it might be time to revive this thread

First off, I am glad to see that the MG number per squad for the motorized Panzer Pionier companies in the Panzer Pionier batallions has been fixed.

It hasn't been for the regimental Pionier companies.

I'd have to go back and dig through the internal discussion, but as I recall there were a couple of organizations for both formations, so instead of creating multiple variations of each pioneer formation, a compromise was made were one variation on the motorized squad was used for the regimental coys and different one for the battalions.

Also, in the MG overview a new formation is mentioned, called:

"Panzergrenadier Flak Platoon (Regimental)" (WSS only I believe)

I have yet to find that ingame, unless it is the supposed to be the standard Flak Battery ??

Also, I somehow suspect, this was supposed to be a company, not a platoon, because the 14th company in WSS Panzergrenadier regiments usually was a Flak company.

I believe the "regimental platoon" was a redundant formation that was eliminated. A regimental flak company can easily be created by renaming a Flak Battery [light] or Self-propelled Flak Battery*.

*I have since found that the regimental coys probably used a 3-platoon, 4-gun org, but that is easy to make by deleting a battery's 4th platoon and adding a specialist team/single vehicle purchase to the other 3.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The following vehicles are missing from the QB editor for the Luftwaffe formations:

Marder II

Zugkraftwagen 8t Flakvierling 20mm

Zugkraftwagen 8t 37mm

Flak SdKfz 10/5

Truck Protze 70

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111928

[akd]

The following vehicles are missing from the QB editor for the Luftwaffe formations:

Marder II

Zugkraftwagen 8t Flakvierling 20mm

Zugkraftwagen 8t 37mm

Flak SdKfz 10/5

The above should be rectified in the patch with the addition of formations to the QB Luftwaffe Armor and Mech sections respectively. The Protze truck is a trickier issue, but I'll run it by Steve. Probably a mounted version of the FJ Infantry Battalion could be added to the QB Luftwaffe Mech Infantry section.

[Rokko]

I'd have to go back and dig through the internal discussion, but as I recall there were a couple of organizations for both formations, so instead of creating multiple variations of each pioneer formation, a compromise was made were one variation on the motorized squad was used for the regimental coys and different one for the battalions.

So there were motorized Pionier formations that had a 1-MG/squad set-up as well as those with 2-MG/squad and so they were kept in at least for the regimental companies?

I've been looking further into the changes that came with the Market Garden patch.

So far I've noticed:

-Heavy platoons for PzGr companies now correcty have 4 HMGs instead of 2.

-Panzer Bataillon staff companies have a PzAufkl Zug and no longer a second armored infanftry platoon

- the 5th company for Armoured SS PG Bns is gone

good changes, all of them.

There is lack of choice I have noticed, at least according to my research.

Motorized PG Bn Heavy Weapons companies (both Heer & WSS) have (in-game) a ATG platoon with 3 guns (correct) and either a 120mm mortar platoon (2 tubes) OR a heavy infanftry gun platoon (2 guns). From what I can tell, it was definately common to have a medium mortar platoon (6 tubes) AND a light infantry gun platoon (2 guns). Nowhere have I found, that 150mm IGs were used in heavy companies, only light ones.

Anyways, my suggestion for heavy companies would be:

one Platoon ATG (3 guns)

one Platoon Mortars (either 2x120mm or 6x81mm)

one Platoon light IG (2x75mm)

(possibly) one Platoon AA guns (6x20mm) - not at all sure about the last one though.

It appears that heavy companies in Armoured PG Bns also had light IGs (at least in some instances), but I haven't done enough research here.

Also, not a TOE problem, but it seems that the Panzergrenadier appearence setting doesn't work anymore.

Edit: The Heavy Weapons company seems to be modeled after this:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/Motorizert/motorized_panzer_grenadier_battalion%201943%20to%201944.htm

which is probably modeled after the original KSTN documents, but I have found definate examples of the other setup I mentioned in at least 2 divisions (5 batallions) engaged in Normandy, 1st SS and 12th SS.

[akd]

So there were motorized Pionier formations that had a 1-MG/squad set-up as well as those with 2-MG/squad and so they were kept in at least for the regimental companies?

Yes, 4 squads per platoon, 1 LMG per squad. See KStN 1118.

There is lack of choice I have noticed, at least according to my research.

Motorized PG Bn Heavy Weapons companies (both Heer & WSS) have (in-game) a ATG platoon with 3 guns (correct) and either a 120mm mortar platoon (2 tubes)

4 tubes, actually

OR a heavy infanftry gun platoon (2 guns). From what I can tell, it was definately common to have a medium mortar platoon (6 tubes)

Please define common with sources.

AND a light infantry gun platoon (2 guns)

This may be so, but it is likely because the unit recently transitioned to new KStN and didn't give up their old IG platoon when they acquired mortars. Probably exceptional rather than common.

Nowhere have I found, that 150mm IGs were used in heavy companies, only light ones.

This seems like a bug. Reported.

(possibly) one Platoon AA guns (6x20mm) - not at all sure about the last one though.

This was present on paper under the Type 44 org, but AFAIK unrealized or not realized until later.

It appears that heavy companies in Armoured PG Bns also had light IGs (at least in some instances), but I haven't done enough research here.

This was present under an older organization and may have been retained in a few units.

Also, not a TOE problem, but it seems that the Panzergrenadier appearence setting doesn't work anymore.

Works for me with two caveats:

1. Waffen SS never had an active "panzergrenadier" uniform option if that is where you are seeking it.

2. The option is active on some motorized units where it should not be available, but only affects the uniforms of a handful of random individuals in the formation. Likely a bug and will be reported. AFAIK, the "panzergrenadier" option only applies to Heer units that are SPW-mounted.

which is probably modeled after the original KSTN documents, but I have found definate examples of the other setup I mentioned in at least 2 divisions (5 batallions) engaged in Normandy, 1st SS and 12th SS.

Yes, both divisions were exceptional in many ways due to retention of older KStN and/or transitional organizations. BFC has generally defaulted to standard orgs except in the cases where exceptions to standard orgs were the rule.

[Rokko]

4 tubes, actually

Well, not in game at least, there you get either 2x150mm IG or 2x120mm, just checked.

Please define common with sources.

Well, I'll have to dig deeper here, but so far I have definate proof for 12SS

(http://members.home.nl/gunslinger/12sshj/reg25.htm; Dugdale & Wood) and

I have also found strong indication given by Zetterling (for lack of a better source atm), that this organization was also used by 9SS, he gives numbers of 10-12 81mm mortars for the 5 motorized PG Bns with no 120mm mortars at all. Can't make definate statements about 1SS actually right now because I don't have my Dugdale & Wood on it around at the moment.

This may be so, but it is likely because the unit recently transitioned to new KStN and didn't give up their old IG platoon when they acquired mortars. Probably exceptional rather than common.

So far found for 9SS, 12SS and probably PLD as well, at least later.

This was present on paper under the Type 44 org, but AFAIK unrealized or not realized until later.

Quite possible, I have only stumbled across this information while writing the post.

Works for me with two caveats:

1. Waffen SS never had an active "panzergrenadier" uniform option if that is where you are seeking it.

2. The option is active on some motorized units where it should not be available, but only affects the uniforms of a handful of random individuals in the formation. Likely a bug and will be reported. AFAIK, the "panzergrenadier" option only applies to Heer units that are SPW-mounted.

Yes I was aware that it was only applicable for Heer units, I just forgot it only worked for SPW mounted troops, although it makes sense, because AFAIK only in the PLD were those uniforms worn. I checked again and with SPW mounted troops it works.

[Rokko]

There are also definately some issues with the Pz Div Escort company (both Heer & WSS).

Most significant is the lack of 2 squads in the Escort (1st) Platoon, which only has one rifle squad (beside support weapons). It also seems inconsistent with regular PG squads that the Panzerschreck is split off. In the mortar section the distribution of small arms (MP40s to be specific) seems wrong, but that is really a minor issue.

In the Recon (4th) Platoon the existance of Panzerschrecks is also wrong apparently.

All this according to the February 1st, 1944 organization. I have found no sources on earlier organizations so far.

Also, I know of at least two PDs in Normandy whose Escort companies also had a light Infantry Gun platoon (12SS and PLD).

Source:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1261feb44.htm

[akd]

Well, not in game at least, there you get either 2x150mm IG or 2x120mm, just checked.

Please be specific. The Waffen SS battalion is missing 1x mortar section.

There are also definately some issues with the Pz Div Escort company (both Heer & WSS).

Most significant is the lack of 2 squads in the Escort (1st) Platoon, which only has one rifle squad (beside support weapons). It also seems inconsistent with regular PG squads that the Panzerschreck is split off. In the mortar section the distribution of small arms (MP40s to be specific) seems wrong, but that is really a minor issue.

In the Recon (4th) Platoon the existance of Panzerschrecks is also wrong apparently.

All this according to the February 1st, 1944 organization. I have found no sources on earlier organizations so far.

Also, I know of at least two PDs in Normandy whose Escort companies also had a light Infantry Gun platoon (12SS and PLD).

Source:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1261feb44.htm

Thanks, I'll check these out.

[Rokko]

Please be specific. The Waffen SS battalion is missing 1x mortar section.

Oops, sorry. That little difference must've slipped my attention.