Surviving in a Kübel vs. 251/1

[poesel]

The issue of the survivability of the halftrack gunners has been discussed here rather thoroughly. IIRC it was more or less undecided and the general consensus was that they were no front line vehicles and shouldn't be used as such.

I won't argue against that.

But in a recent battle I had 251s and Kübels and the results were a bit odd. So I made a test. 9 lanes separated by walls, US infantry regulars with target light orders. I minute of shooting. On the other side 9 Kübel with a FO team (3 men), regular fanatics with tight CAs for the first test. Second test was 9 251/1 again with the FO team and 'open up' order.

So if you were on the receiving end of a rifle platoon - where would you want to sit?

Here:

Or here:

Not a difficult question it seems (if 'neither' is not an option).

This is how it looked after a minute with Kübels:

and with the 251:

Death toll:

Kübel (per lane): 4,1,0,0,0,0,3,4,2 = 14 of 36 dead

251 (per lane): 0,3,3,1,3,4,4,2,3 = 23 of 36 dead

Hmm - surprising, isn't it? 9 tests is not much but it's not a single incident either. And it is only a comparison between a Kübel and a 251 so it could well be that the Kübel is too well protected. But IMHO this test reflects the experience I have from playing the game - and that is that the halftrack gunners die much too easily.

The scenario files are here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8811801/251_Kuebel.zip

[bisu]

Your tests confirm again that there is an issue with halftrack gunners, as did those conducted initially by Baneman. Unfortunately the original thread got somehow derailed into discussion about the use of halftracks in RL, which in fact was irrelevant to the actual topic. And unfortunately we never had any official comment from BTF regarding this.

[Holman]

[Baneman]

... And unfortunately we never had any official comment from BTF regarding this.

Not completely true, c3k was in touch with me, I sent him my test setups and as far as I know he did further tests.

This "issue" is certainly in the "BFC is Aware" category

Regarding Kubels, Jeeps and Trucks - it has always seemed to me that they are far too survivable due to a tendency for small-arms-equipped infantry to shoot at the vehicle ( engine/body ) and not the much softer inhabitants ( possibly due to the aim-for-centre-mass SOP for vehicle targets ).

I've seen half-squads of Germans wiped out by 2-3 Garand-wielding jeep passengers whom you would think should have been trashed by the Germans' first burst.

I've also seen fully laden trucks caught in HMG fire for 2 or more turns escape with only one casualty :eek: ( edit: pre-2.x HMG's I should note )

But I've never tested it beyond the "it seems" state. Perhaps I should take poesel's work as a kick in the direction of some more testing

[Childress]

I ran your test three times each for the 251 and the KW. Results:

251, Killed/Wounded

Allies: 24/9

Germs: 15/48

KW, Killed/Wounded

Allies: 10/9

Germs: 17/26

Kübels are safer for passengers. 251s kill more Allies. But not a single 251 was destroyed versus 6 KWs.

[John Kettler]

poesel71,

What version of the game are you playing, please? The results against the KW will vary considerably between 1.x or 1.xx and 2.x or 2.xx. Anything before 2.x will reflect that fire is concentrated on the occupants, with very little fire hitting the vehicle itself. That alone would tend to skew your results.

There is another factor you failed to mention: dimensional difference. The 251 is much taller (5'9") and wider (6'10") than the KW (3'8" tall x 5'3" W), thus far easier to hit. Volume of fire tells, and putting a lot of lead where it really smarts is more readily accomplished when the target is tall and wide, as opposed to low and narrow. Aiming has to be much more precise against the KW, both laterally and vertically, because it subtends a much narrower cone than does the 251 in which fire can yield a hit. Range error estimations (how long is that lane?) are far less critical, too, when engaging the 251.

Depending on the version of the game, the KW may or may not be explicitly targeted, but I'm pretty sure the fire against the 251s is directed at the exposed men. The open visor penetrations are therefore bonuses from the fire aimed elsewhere.

Exposed parts of 251 personnel have no cover whatsoever, whereas the KW occupants do have at least some, though an engine in front of the occupants would obviously be a big help. Also, I think your "Which option do you prefer?" is a bit off, in that you show only the gunner up on the 251, but there are actually more targets visible than that.

Take out the full compartment width shield, and note what great targets standing men make in a 251.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/SdKfz251/SdKfz251I10-2.jpg

And you'd best hope you don't get caught moving administratively, as seen here.

http://forum.valka.cz/files/sdkfz_251_c_180.jpg

But here's another shot with troops up and spotting. Note high degree of exposure.

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=8715

So, not only is the 251 already a big target, but the PBI is shooting at men atop said monument, men as much as half exposed and covering pretty much the full upper width of the compartment. No longer is this a shooting the forward MG gunner problem. Far from it!

In all, I think you may wish to revisit this test, since there are numerous factors which, in my view, may be distorting your results.

Regards,

John Kettler

[bisu]

Not completely true, c3k was in touch with me, I sent him my test setups and as far as I know he did further tests.

Indeed c3k was involved, but AFAIK there was no information yet on the conclusion of his testing. So we still don't know whether BTF is going to change something or they consider gunners vulnerability is OK as it is currently. That is what I meant with "no official comment"..

[A Canadian Cat]

Your tests confirm again that there is an issue with halftrack gunners, as did those conducted initially by Baneman.

Well you could also conclude that the Kübels are offering too much protection instead of the 251 offer too little.

[bisu]

Well you could also conclude that the Kübels are offering too much protection instead of the 251 offer too little.

I am assuming that the the small arms vs. unarmored vehicles interaction has been corrected in the 2.01 patch (as mentioned in the patch feature list) so these vehicles can be now used as "baseline".

[poesel]

I ran your test three times each for the 251 and the KW. Results:

251, Killed/Wounded

Allies: 24/9

Germs: 15/48

KW, Killed/Wounded

Allies: 10/9

Germs: 17/26

Kübels are safer for passengers. 251s kill more Allies. But not a single 251 was destroyed versus 6 KWs.

I had the Kw and 251 always on a tight CA so they didn't shoot back. Thus I never counted the Allied cas.

I should have been more specific what I meant by 'dead': dead = CM casualty. Not the 'yellow' wounded.

Childress - how did you count? Are these numbers accumulated from three runs?

Re. destroyed vehicles: same with my test. The 251 survive but Kübels can get destroyed by small arms fire.

If this issue is under scrutiny by BFC then all is good. If not - would it help if I ran more tests or a different setup?

Btw. tests made with latest version of course.

[ChrisND]

If this issue is under scrutiny by BFC then all is good. If not - would it help if I ran more tests or a different setup?

No need to run more tests, I've taken it up and run some tests of my own.

[Childress]

Childress - how did you count? Are these numbers accumulated from three runs?

Yes. The odd thing was the high Wounded to Kill ratio for the Germans. This stat, typical to all battlefields, seems reversed from common CM2 results which supposedly omits minor wounds.

[poesel]

Since we are at halftrack gunner survivability again I assume its ok to resurrect this thread.

I ran the same test again with MG. 251s and Kübel occupied by FOs vs US infantry (s. above). Each test ran twice. Death toll:

251s: 12 and 19

Kübel: 11 and 15

There is a small oddity which favours the Kübels a bit. I can't set a CA for the Kübels during setup (next turn I can). That means that the Kübel occupants do fire back while the 251s don't. I can't remember if this was like that pre-MG but I doubt it very much.

A thing to note: once I forgot to unbutton the 251s. Result was that the US didn't shoot at all (apart from a few rifle grenades). Shooting only begins when the HTs unbutton.

Not much to gather from such a small test. But I still think the balance is a bit off. The death rate in the Kübels should be higher.

The protection of the HT looks good but I think it is one thing that kills the gunners in droves: a TC will button up when small arms fire plinks off his vehicle. The HT will not. And even worse: his replacement won't either and his, too! Since the infantry stops shooting when the HT is buttoned it would be a wise move from the gunner to duck and wait until the hail is over and then pop up again and fire a few bursts. I could also accept it if he dies while pulling the trigger but in this test (and IME) he usually doesn't while dying.

So my expected (gut feeling) result for this test with a 251 should be between 0 and 1 deaths per lane to a total of 5. Now it is three times as high.

[John Kettler]

Apropos of this discussion, I'd further point out that if the KW is taking hits on the vehicle, rather than the passengers being explicitly targeted, there are quite a few places in which a hit will neither disable the KW or hit one of those in it. As noted earlier by someone else, it's explicitly exposed occupants who are targeted on the 251. If the 251's under MG fire, and the driver's visor (and passenger's) happens to be open, that's a bonus outcome for the ones attacking the 251, but generally speaking, no sharpshooter's likely to seek a visor shot at appreciable range. If it worked, though, it could find far more targets than the driver and shotgun, such as a bunch of Panzer Grenadiers or an HQ.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Regarding KW survivability, I had what I considered an odd thing happen the other day. I had set up an ambush for a KW coming down a dirt road with only the driver in it. I used a full parachute squad divided into three teams, two SMGs, two BARs, one LMG and the rest a mix of Garands and carbines. The KW came down the road and the teams opened over two turns. I'd guess that maybe something like a thousand rounds were fired, all at not more than 50 m and many at not much over 20 m. It looked as though at least a hundred rounds must have hit, going by the strike flashes. ISTR at least one rifle grenade was also fired. Thing is, it took almost two minutes of this before the vehicle was disabled and the driver wasn't hit until he opened the door and stepped out. That was one tough KW!

I don't offer this as proof of anything in particular except that odd things can happen in CM as in real life.

Michael

[bisu]

Regarding KW survivability, I had what I considered an odd thing happen the other day. I had set up an ambush for a KW coming down a dirt road with only the driver in it. I used a full parachute squad divided into three teams, two SMGs, two BARs, one LMG and the rest a mix of Garands and carbines. The KW came down the road and the teams opened over two turns. I'd guess that maybe something like a thousand rounds were fired, all at not more than 50 m and many at not much over 20 m. It looked as though at least a hundred rounds must have hit, going by the strike flashes. ISTR at least one rifle grenade was also fired. Thing is, it took almost two minutes of this before the vehicle was disabled and the driver wasn't hit until he opened the door and stepped out. That was one tough KW!

I don't offer this as proof of anything in particular except that odd things can happen in CM as in real life.

Michael

Yes, Michael, there is definitely something odd about the behaviour of KW in game..

It became clear to me yesterday as by coincidence I was watching the "Where Eagles Dare" movie directly after having read your post.

On top of the dozens of Germans mowed down by the Burton-Eastwood duo, you can clearly see that KW´s including passengers should succumb just after a single MP40 burst..

[Michael Emrys]

On top of the dozens of Germans mowed down by the Burton-Eastwood duo, you can clearly see that KW´s including passengers should succumb just after a single MP40 burst..

Well, if they made a movie about it, it must be true!

Michael

[c3k]

Hopefully my Assault Jeep will have this type of invulnerability at is it attacks Jaggie 241.

Yes, something to be looked at.

[GJR144]

I did a few tests with Kübelwagen VS Snipers and SPW251/1 VS Snipers.

To my surprise the KW is absolutely safe. The snipers do not shoot at it. When it reaches close combat range grenades are thrown at it and it is destroyed.

The SPW 251/1 are completely different: the snipers open fire very early.

If the vehicle is open and as long as the gunner has a covered arc, he is more safe than the driver. Had not a single hit on a gunner during my tests, but several hit drivers.

Once the gunner uses the main gun, he is no longer safe and immediately is under fire and easily hit. It doesn't matter if he shoots at the sniper or area fire in front of the SPW. The gun use seems to be the deadly trigger for the gunner.

[Oddball_E8]

Actually, my experience from CMx2 makes me question why they even included weaponry on any open vehicle.

What did they use Jeeps with MG's for?

What did they use halftrack MG's for?

It seems pointless to have since anyone that uses them at nearly any distance will die.

Did they use them only as AA weapons?

It just seems strange to me.

[Michael Emrys]

If you were the SAS, or fought the way they do, MG armed jeeps were both useful and survivable. As far as they existed in US formations, I think the guns were there mostly for the moral support of the troops. If you were doing a road recce and came upon some suspicious looking patch of woods, you might stop and let off a few rounds into the underbrush. But if somebody shot back at you, you didn't hang around and duke it out, you got the hell out of there and called up the big boys, the ones in armor with bigger guns.

Michael