Ritirare! Italian Defense AAR

[womble]

Yup, looks like hitting all in the same 16m x 8m box... That's consistent with what I've seen in game, and seems like it ought to be doable, though arguable whether it's too close to "practice range" performance... If they're Vet crew, it doesn't seem too surprising.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

That's a U.S. mortar bomb in your Minute 22 screenshot. Further, it's an 81mm mortar bomb, as can be seen by referring to the second pic from the bottom at the link.

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/mort_at/R5082.html

Country of origin can also be determined from the paint and telltale stenciling, since the two countries use distinct approaches to both.

Italian 81mm mortar bombs are painted as per post 3 here.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/topic/6520-81mm-mortar-round-color/

U.S. 81mm M43 series HE looks like this (repaint by hardcore re-enactors).

http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Projects/M43Repaint/images/IMG_0563.jpg

The pattern of mortar impacts you show is outright scary. Those things practically landed IN the foxholes. Given the burst radius for the 81mm, he blanketed that position. In looking at the overhead, your foxholes seem awfully close together? Were you space constrained when you set them up?

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

Sorry for the delay all. I've got a newborn in the house who is making timely AAR updates a bit of a challenge.

Turn 24

While there is still little movement on the American side of the battlefield my R35 does spot some infantry running around and sends a HE round their way. It's not a big explosion but when it's basically a direct hit on a Joe that doesn't matter.

And finally my mortar barrage begins. The first few impacts seem to be landing a bit short but there is still plenty of HE goodness to fall. I'm hopeful that this barrage catches a bunch of Penry's men in the area. The delay to whatever he's planning would be beneficial to my cause.

Turn 25

Reports of the destruction of the M3 GMC were highly exaggerated. As my Breda MG pumped some bullets into the GMC trying to knock it out for good the halftrack started moving forward. I was definitely surprised to see it moving. I was happy to see at least one American taken out of the fight.

I got a little big more luck out of this little encounter. The GMC drove forward just enough to enter the line of sight of my R35. And what's this... he used an AP round! The round impacted the halftrack but didn't knock it out. Probably because it went through both sides of the rear area. The AP was followed up by a HE round that didn't seem to do much damage. I cannot imagine the halftrack can take much more punishment and knocking it out would be huge for me. That 75mm gun definitely is a concern of mine.

I cannot judge how well my barrage did but I think it went pretty well. Not only were there impacts around the buildings I was targeting but the woods around Bridge Z01 as well. If Perny had any men in there they would have taken some casualties.

As my barrage ended the American barrage began. Penry must have a good spotter because they are dropping the artillery right on target at the Farm. The first two shells imact around my 47mm gun and my mortars. Thankfully there's no harm done but this is only the beginning. I have a feeling this is going to hurt... a lot.

Orders

I'm pulling the R35 at the Farm back while the American artillery strike occurs. It's probably too late to pull anyone else out from the Farm so I'm hoping they hunker down and ride it out as best as they can.

[BigDork]

Turn 26

Germany to the rescue! Some of Hitler's finest finally show up knowing we could use the assistance. A platoon of infantry and two StuG III should do a lot to help keep the Americans out of the Farm and away from the barns.

The infantry is being sent up to BN along with one of the StuGs. I'm going to use these newly arrived Germans to try a rush down the hill. Where a single Italian infantry unit failed I'm thinking a platoon of infantry supported by a StuG will succeed. The other StuG is being sent towards the Farm to shore up the defenses there.

Orders

Everything is going badly at the Farm. The entire area is covered in a haze of smoke and dust and the artillery keeps falling. My infantry there have suffered serious casualties. The gun is knocked out and one of the mortars is soon to follow. I've changed course for the German infantry and they're being dispatched across Bridge Z02 and into the Farm. I'm already seeing some American infantry creeping forward waiting for the barrage to end. Without some infantry there to fight them off I could possibly lose the Farm.

[BigDork]

Turn 27

The Farm continues to get brutally pummeled with artillery. I don't even know the number of casualties but it's high. Basically every unit inside that zone is broken and useless... those who survived that is. But it's not only my men who are suffering, the farm itself cannot withstand the beating.

I caught glimpses of Yank infantry last turn. This turn... here they come! Penry is taking advantage of the units in the Farm being neutralized but trying to push his men over the bridge. Some of my infantry in the woods near BS is doing their best to slow the advance.

Orders

As you can see below the Americans are pushing forward towards the Farm. However my Germans are on the move too. If I can hold the Yanks off for a couple minutes I should be able to bolster the defenses and hold the objective.

[BigDork]

Turn 28

For the third minute artillery falls and my men die at the Farm. Penry really opened up on the objective. He almost got a lucky strike in as one shell fell far and near my R35 and my StuG. But luck is with me right now and this was only the beginning.

The arrival of the StuGs on the battlefield changed things significantly. The R35s were a nuisance for the most part. My assault guns are a threat as these Joes crossing the bridge found out. Until Penry can find a way to take out my StuGs he's going to find it very difficult to move his men around on the map.

My R35 up at BS started taking a beating from some .50 caliber MG fire and started to panic. He must have back into the sight of a GMC because something impacted my tank. But again luck is with me this turn and despite the penetration there were no casualties and minimal damage. The crew is panicked and backing into the woods as fast as they can. I'm going to let them collect themselves and then push them back into the fight. That tank is integral to my defense of BS.

The attention from the StuG and gunfire coming in from my infantry at BS proves to be too much for the Americans trying to cross the bridge. Having watched several of their comrades fall and not feeling like they have the support they need to advance the Americans break and retreat. This is the break I needed! Now I should have time to move the Germans forward into the Farm.

Orders

The Germans are over Bridge Z02 and moving towards the Farm. The artillery has stopped falling so it should be safe for them. With the American push halted for now they should be able to make it mostly unscathed. I've ordered them to rush into the foxholes left by their fallen Italian allies. From here I'll assess the situation and maybe push forward and try to retake Bridge Z01. That will be a few turns down the road though.

[Nik_B]

Hi BigDork

Great AAR I'm really enjoying reading it, in fact I was on here earlier to see if you'd added anything and was disappointed when I didn't find a new update...luckily for me I checked back a bit later

Is this Gustav Lines by the way?

[BigDork]

Thanks Nik! I'm glad you are enjoying it. Penry and I get about 5 turns or so a week. I try to update the same day I do the turns but I've got a 6 week old who doesn't care about AARs. I need to teach her some.

I'm pretty sure this is just vanilla FI. I do have GL as well so it is possibly from the expansion but I don't think so.

[womble]

I'm pretty sure the scenario itself is part of the base game, as I've seen an AAR of the counterattack part on this map, I think, and that was well before GL was even announced. And... a quick check of my vanilla FI says "yup".

I guess it's using the GL version of the engine, though, as it would have to be a conscious decision to fire up the pre-GL version for the game, if Penry hasn't got GL.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Am amazed that M3 GMC survives, but it shows that Pk is indeed tied to the ratio between total area and vulnerable area. Your shots somehow seem to be hitting in noncritical places, else the thing would either be sans crew, dead or a funeral pyre.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Excellent news! The Abwehr has captured and distributed the manual for the M3 GMC. You are particularly directed to image 11 on page 52. There you can see there is indeed a fair amount of space in which an AP penetration might well encounter little in its path. Intel provided is expected to refine your aimpoint selection.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ArticlePDFs/TD_Weapons_Chap11_Complete.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Failed to remark, as I'd planned to, on the Totentanz (or is it the pas de deux du mort?) by the bridge. Comrades even in death!

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

Turn 29

Well Penry is down a couple more halftracks. At this rate his guys are going to be walking all the way to Berlin. The first one is taken out by the StuG I had sent up near BN. As he hunts forward he spots a halftrack moving about on the far side of Bridge Z01. Using an AP round he puts it through the halftrack, stunning the crew. A few moments later my assault gun follows it up with another AP round finishing the vehicle off.

Then in a ballsy or desperate move one of the American halftracks races straight at the Farm. He's moving fast enough that at first my men have trouble taking aim. However as the halftrack stops to let out some men or whatever it was ordered to do my R35 opens up on it... with a HE round. The halftrack isn't taken out but the crew does suffer a casualty.

[BigDork]

Turn 29

It's not all good news for me however. Penry gets his licks in as well this turn. I knew it was a bit risky to rush my Germans forward from Bridge Z02 to the Farm without any smoke but I didn't have the time to set them up with some concealment. That being said, casualties were light this turn with only two men from the infantry squads being taken out by small arms fire. What hurt slightly was that one of them was a MG42 LMG.

Far more painful was the loss of all but the assistant commander for the German infantry platoon. One of the American mortars must have spotted all the movement at Bridge Z02 and taken the opportunity to cause me some trouble. With one shell the German HQ team was neutered.

The mortar team didn't stop there however. With a few extra mortars Penry's men managed to knock out my gun and send the remainder of the crew running. With that, both of my field guns have been knocked out without a shot being fired. How very disappointing.

Orders

I don't have a lot of new orders for my men. The Germans are almost to the Farm where they will take over the foxholes the Italians dug. Many of those Italians are still in those holes, just no longer with us. I also had to order my FO to cease his incoming arty strike. I had called it in anticipation of losing the Farm but now that I seem to be holding it I am going to re-position it to focus on Bridge Z01. I have held the Americans to the bridge for the most part and if I can shock them with a good barrage I may be able to use the German infantry, supported by the StuGs to retake it.

[BigDork]

BigDork,

Excellent news! The Abwehr has captured and distributed the manual for the M3 GMC. You are particularly directed to image 11 on page 52. There you can see there is indeed a fair amount of space in which an AP penetration might well encounter little in its path. Intel provided is expected to refine your aimpoint selection.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ArticlePDFs/TD_Weapons_Chap11_Complete.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

That's one heck of a find! Interesting and I can see why an AP round, if hitting the right place could go through and do little damage. However if it's head on or butt on, it would definitely cause some issues.

By big problem I'm having is that the StuGs are using AP exclusively to fire on the halftracks while the R35s are almost only using HE. I have a feeling that is an engine issue.

BigDork,

Failed to remark, as I'd planned to, on the Totentanz (or is it the pas de deux du mort?) by the bridge. Comrades even in death!

Regards,

John Kettler

Several more comrades died this past turn. I think that bridge should be renamed Ponte della Morte... the Bridge of Death.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

You're most welcome! If you continue past the pic, you'll find the complete crew drill for operating the M3 GMC. Particularly instructive are the crew positions in action (note Loader at firing), from which it's easy to see how you could have through and throughs in much of the main compartment yet hit no one. If you like this manual, then you'll love the goodies at

http://www.easy39th.com/home.php

under Research.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Baneman]

Turn 29

... That being said, casualties were light this turn with only two men from the infantry squads being taken out by small arms fire. What hurt slightly was that one of them was a MG42 LMG.

...

You'll find that when 1 man in a German team gets hit, it's ALWAYS(*) the MG42-toting guy !

And not just because he's doing most of the firing - even if it's a totally random mortar round that landed 70m away, it's him ! Murphy prowls the battlefield.

When I play Axis, I become very good at buddy-aid to get the MG42's back.

* Ok, actually it's only him 95% of the time

[womble]

You'll find that when 1 man in a German team gets hit, it's ALWAYS(*) the MG42-toting guy !

* Ok, actually it's only him 95% of the time

And the other 95% of the time, it's the team leader.

[BigDork]

Turn 30-32

Well all good things must come to an end and my dominance of the battlefield was pretty damn good. Looks like the Americans finally decided to really show up and kick my ragtag bunch of defenders out of the way. A squad of Shermans is going to be difficult to deal with.

Even more difficult with the loss of one of my StuGs almost instantly. I had ordered him to start moving in around the hill near BN last turn. I had thought that my assault gun was going to be able to have fun with Penry's halftracks. Talk about horrible timing on the arrival of those Yank tanks.

The first shell caused casualties to half the crew. The commander and gunner decided to bail out instead of stay and fight. Probably the right decision since a few seconds later a second and a third shell hit the StuG until it was obviously out of the battle.

My R35 up near BN found itself out in the open at an inopportune time as well. He too had just received orders to drive forward to start taking on American halftracks. I have to say I was very impressed with this little tank. It took multiple penetrations by .50 cal MG fire and several shells from the Shermans to knock this sucker out.

Orders

My remaining StuG has its work cut out for it. It is 3 on 1 and there's still at least one GMC still in the fight as well. The battle was called "Withdraw!" for a reason. I think the time will quickly come when I'll be withdrawing. I'll at least stick it out until my other StuG is destroyed but after that, time to bug out.

I will say I expected this from the scenario all along. The sides just seemed too imbalanced, me with StuGs and Penry with just halftracks. But now, things are definitely not in my favor. Maybe if a Mark IV shows up or something I may stand a chance. Actually now that I think about it I should have some more reinforcements coming from the woods near BN. I may not be quite out of this battle yet.

[John Kettler]

Big Dork,

Ow! I see Murphy has summarily removed you (may it be temporary) from his Most Favored Commander list. I'm intrigued that these Shermans come with the nasty .50 forward configuration, yet in BoB, the TCs came roaring in blazing away while standing behind the turret on the engine deck. Am no Sherman expert, but something seems off about the very convenient Ma Deuce positioning you're facing. As for the R35s, I think people will now be far less inclined to sneer as a result of all the damage you've done with yours, ammo selection issues not withstanding.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

JK: BoB was set nearly a year later, wasn't it (this is a Sicily scenario)? Sherman types changed their details nearly as often as a dogface changed their socks (or so it seems sometimes). There probably is a (or several) Sherman variant that has the .50cal mounted to the rear of the hatch; just not this one. They might even have made the change to discourage TCs from thinking they had "fightin' duties", when they're supposed to be bossing the crew.

[BigDork]

Turn 33

Well this turned out to be a very surprising turn for me.

The minute began with the Americans making their move on BN. With my one StuG and R35 destroyed there, all that I have left in defense is a platoon of infantry. Penry is definitely taking advantage of his sudden reversal of fortune.

Things aren't all that easy for the US though. His infantry is hounded by long range small arms fire from the Farm and from BS causing them to go to ground from time to time. Even better either a MG42 LMG or a Breda at the Farm fires on the halftracks causing at least one crew casualty and also halting them at least momentarily. If I can stop Penry from sending in support for his infantry I can hold BN.

With that thought in mind, last turn I ordered my StuG to rotate to the right to try and cover the hill approaching BN. I have to say, that order paid off big time. As the Sherman exploded in a big ball of fire I actually loudly exclaimed "WOAH!" I had not expected my StuG to target the Sherman and was shocked when there was suddenly this large explosion. Suddenly this battle is feeling a slight bit more winnable to me. Now instead of 3 to 1, my StuG is only facing 2 Shermans.

Here you can see my StuG had a pretty good shot on the Sherman. How he saw the US tank through all the foliage is beyond me but I'm not going to complain.

Orders

I've shuffled some of the infantry in the woods at BN around to better face the US advance. Penry is coming in more along the right edge of the woods and I want to ensure I have as many guns there to meet him.

I also find a rather big surprise in the woods on the back side of BS. Apparently the US infantry unit who made it in the woods a while back sneaked around my infantry screen and is coming up on one of my R35s. I order my tank to get the heck out of there and give one of my infantry teams the order to start hunting the Yanks out.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Following that especially ugly last turn, this one's a huge improvement! Concerning the ability of your StuG to target through the trees, I'd like to point out that it sits so low it's generally below the obscuring tree branches, whereas the typical tank's LOS is obscured by them. This is an edge you can and should exploit. The MG-42 can be a deadly threat to U.S. halftracks at ranges of a few hundred meters, especially when given nice perpendicular shots at vertical armor!

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

womble,

CM Thread regarding .50 mounts and their use.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/archive/index.php/t-58935.html

Harry Yeide (our own military historian) 12-13-2002

I just received the following from a query I sent to John Walker, who was a platoon commander in the 750th Tank Battalion:

"As to the 50 cal machine gun on the tank. For the most part it was of little use to us. Because of its location, it was very awkward for the tank commander to fire standing in the turret. Under some circumstances, you might fire it standing outside on the deck of the tank, but this was very rare. On a few occasions, infantry riding on the tank might also fire it. But again, its use was very limited."

Maj. Battaglia 12-12-2002

Doing some more searching, I found the following text on the site of Center of Research and Informations on the Battle of the Bulge (Belgium). It describes the capture of the town of Poteau during the Bulge. It was put together by George J. Winter and based on AARs as well as interviews and letters with participants.

"As Van Tine neared the edge of the village his tank was subjected to a near miss from a panzerfaust fired from the building behind Spencer. Almost simultaneous to this the 75mm [gun barrel] struck a tree to the right of the Sherman causing the turret to spin. Nelson, the young gunner, was stunned by the impact. "I was dazed as I was pressing my face against the sights when we hit and just then our tank commander yelled to shoot straight ahead." (letter to the author from Gerald Nelson, August 31, 1987.)

"Van Tine's order to fire was, without doubt, a reaction to the panzerfaust that had just missed his tank. With no immediate response to his order and certainly realizing a quick measure was absolutely necessary to save his imperiled crew and tank, Van Tine climbed out the turret hatch. Manning the .50 caliber machine gun he was almost immediately struck in the head. (Van Tine's intention to leave the tank can only be concluded from the known facts. It is unreasonable to suppose that the tank commander left the Sherman and the security it offered simply to fire at a sniper. Gerald Nelson supports this view. "I don't think Van Tine would have gotten out of our tank to fire a sniper. A sniper wasn't a threat but a bazooka was.")"

(Note: Van Tine was on the deck, as is described a bit further.)

Click here for the whole story. (http://users.skynet.be/bulgecriba/poteau.htm)

Maj. Battaglia 12-12-2002

Here is another tidbit, a story written by a John M. Williams on the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association (http://www.fcsa.org/story.html) website.

An excerpt:

"On the back of the turret [of his M4A3E8] was a pedestal-mounted 0.50 caliber which seldom got used. Lets face it, nobody was dumb enough to get out of the tank and stand on the back deck to fire the thing. No Alan Ladds or John Waynes in our outfit."

Maj. Battaglia 12-14-2002

Some evidence from the 11th Armored Division (http://www.geocities.com/the11thada) site.

First, a photo dated May 4, 1945:

http://www.geocities.com/the11thada/photos/pages/PIC00009.htm

This looks like the AA mount was moved to the front of the loader's hatch so he could use the 50 from within the turret. (edited to provide link in case broken graphic: AA mount on Sherman (http://www.geocities.com/the11thada/photos/pages/PIC00009.htm)

Next, a quote from a story about a tank unit in the Bulge:

"the Kraut infantry was coming along he ridge on the other side of the river. We opened up on them, knocking off quite a few before they dispersed. It really was a sight to see Junior up there outside his turret on the back deck of the tank, firing his 50 caliber machine gun like mad."

Google Images tends to support this scenario. M4A1s often have no .50 cal fitted, have it fitted to the rear of the turret, or if fitted with a pintle mount, it's so tall that, presuming there's even room to work the weapon, the shooter's going to be half exposed, not the cozy barely exposed head and shoulders only configuration depicted in the game. I faced exactly this situation in Barkmann's corner, and I found it nightmarish as the Germans, for the American TC's were practically invulnerable from all aspects but dead front, being protected by the split hatch.

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

My god John, how do you find a this information? I'm in awe of all the goodness to read.