Ritirare! Italian Defense AAR

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

It looks as if your R35 is firing HE, rather than AP of some sort. Would you please take a look at your ammo rack and let us know, please? That looks like an enormous force concentration you have in the center, and you seem to be giving Penry one bloody nose after another. All in all, things look very good so far for the defense.

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

Turn 12

Well that didn't go quite how I planned it. I've got to give Penry some credit, it would appear he was prepared for the possibility of me coming out of the woods. That or he spotted my men and had time to react. As my men crested the hill an American machine gun team started sending burst after burst of hot lead their way. Quickly my men hit the turn and my rush down the hill was over.

Moments later my men decided that a headlong rush downhill towards a machine gun with zero support was a bad idea. They picked themselves up and started heading back up the hill towards the safety of BN. Unfortunately for me four of the men have because casualties and they are far from safety. I knew I was taking a slight gamble and honestly I'm feeling kind of stupid for doing it. The battle was going well for me without this attack. All I've done is lose several men and give Penry a small victory that will improve his morale.

Orders

Things are going well for me with the one exception. I've ordered my one team to keep making their way back to the safety of the woods. Once they make it back I just may swap out the squad that got shot up for the fresh one I have back further by the barn. I'd rather have fresh infantry at full strength be my first line of defense when the Americans finally make their charge into the woods.

[BigDork]

BigDork,

It looks as if your R35 is firing HE, rather than AP of some sort. Would you please take a look at your ammo rack and let us know, please? That looks like an enormous force concentration you have in the center, and you seem to be giving Penry one bloody nose after another. All in all, things look very good so far for the defense.

Regards,

John Kettler

I can confirm that it is firing HE at the halftrack. In turn 12 my R35 finished off the halftrack and it did the task with HE.

So far so good but we still have a long way to go and I have no clue what he's going to get for reinforcements. The battle clearly starts in my favor force wise but I have a strong feeling that will shift soon.

[herr_oberst]

Turn 12

All I've done is lose several men and give Penry a small victory that will improve his morale.

All the better to CRUSH his morale with your coming turns.

I'd be tempted to be content with denying movement to the degree that you can while you wait for reinforcements to arrive.

My only advice, having just finished reading "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson (a good read of the Sicily, Italy campaign, which sometimes leaves you wondering how the Allies actually won, but execution of actual warfare is filled with difficult choices (thank goodness it's only pixeltruppen that I lead to their massacre)), is not to commit those reinforcements piecemeal. If terrain denial is working, accumulate what you can so it hits hard, rather than in drips and drabs.

[BigDork]

Turn 13

After the action of the past two minutes things quiet back down. One of my units fires on a halftrack with no real effect. Near the end of the turn my R35 at BN spots an infantry unit making a move down near Bridge Z01. The shot it takes is a beauty. It's a bull's eye! One man obviously taken out. Due to the small HE shell though it would appear no one else is injured. Pity.

My infantry team is able to escape back into the woods near BN. They unfortunately suffer a couple more casualties before they reach the safety of the trees. Many of my men fell bleeding next to their foes.

Orders

I've given orders to my infantry at BN to swap places. The chewed up infantry are heading back to the barn to rest up and the fresh squad is moving forward. MY FO continues making his way from Bridge Z02 to BS through the trees. He still has a couple more turns before he arrives but I need him to hurry... I want him in place before the Yanks reinforcements arrive.

[BigDork]

All the better to CRUSH his morale with your coming turns.

I'd be tempted to be content with denying movement to the degree that you can while you wait for reinforcements to arrive.

My only advice, having just finished reading "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson (a good read of the Sicily, Italy campaign, which sometimes leaves you wondering how the Allies actually won, but execution of actual warfare is filled with difficult choices (thank goodness it's only pixeltruppen that I lead to their massacre)), is not to commit those reinforcements piecemeal. If terrain denial is working, accumulate what you can so it hits hard, rather than in drips and drabs.

Thanks some excellent advice. If I can keep Penry pinned down and clumped up I can hit him hard. I just need to survive him trying to do the same to me when his forces arrive.

[BigDork]

Dang thread went to the next page. Don't miss Turn 13 on the bottom of the last page.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Your turn 13 pic confused me until I read the text. At first blush, I thought I was looking a a jeep or something hit by HE, with its front heaved momentarily skyward (a fate my jeeps have had before), but it turns out to be a man. Wasn't expecting that. Recent lumps aside, I think you're doing very well against Penry and have hurt him badly.

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

BigDork,

Your turn 13 pic confused me until I read the text. At first blush, I thought I was looking a a jeep or something hit by HE, with its front heaved momentarily skyward (a fate my jeeps have had before), but it turns out to be a man. Wasn't expecting that. Recent lumps aside, I think you're doing very well against Penry and have hurt him badly.

Regards,

John Kettler

Yep, that was direct hit on some poor Joe. At least he didn't feel a thing.

I think I'm doing very well too. This is Penry's first time attacking against another human and I think this is a difficult map to do it on. He's shown a few moments that have me worried though. His reinforcements could change things up a lot.

Our next battle is on the same map with me attacking and I have a feeling it'll be me desperately trying to figure out a way to get my attack started.

[BigDork]

Turn 14

INCOMING!!! Well, not yet but soon. The first spotting round from the anticipated barrage lands in the open between BN and the Farm. I actually hate where this landed because it leaves me guessing which location Penry is aiming for. I'm putting all my lira on the Farm being the target. It makes the most sense if he wants to have freedom of movement to hit either barn.

As the turn is just about to finish up my Breda spots a couple Americans sneaking through the plowed field towards BS. My men get a shot off but it misses. Unless my gunner turns into a dead shot from 200 meters away I have a feeling I'm about to have some Yanks making trouble in the woods. Unfortunately for them I have some infantry laying in wait.

Orders

My FO continues to make his way through the woods towards BS. Since I don't know for sure the artillery is coming for the Farm I'm holding off for another turn before I decide if I want to pull some men out temporarily or not.

[BigDork]

Turn 15

The Americans have definitely infiltrated the woods near BS. Throughout the 15th minute of battle I watched as a full squad of American infantry slowly crawled their way into the woods. Despite my machine gun team's best efforts they only manage to cause one casualty. The entire squad isn't in the woods yet but the majority is. While 8 to 10 GIs won't be able to take BS by themselves they can cause some problems. Also they just proved to Penry that he can somewhat safely move men forward. It's slow going but it worked.

Another interesting development occurs this turn. Another spotting round lands in front of the woods near BN. At first I thought it was just another mortar round but then it started smoking. Ah-ha! Penry is planning on laying down a smokescreen in front of BN. It looks like things may be getting exciting again very soon.

I'm actually kind of confused and slightly worried by the smokescreen. Why is Penry putting smoke near BN but moving infantry towards BS? He should be focusing his efforts on one location or the other. If he's splitting his forces I can weather this rather well. Of course as of right now I've only spotted a single squad making its way towards BS and I have no clue what he has laying in wait for the smoke to form. So for all I know I am about to get overran.

Orders

I have tweaked the covered arcs for my infantry in the woods of BS in reaction to the enemy that are approaching. I'm not really sure what can be done about the approach the infantry took to get to BS. And the more I think about it the more I may not do anything. Penry cannot quickly move men up through that field and if he wants to spend long minutes slowly crawling his troops into the woods where they will take several more minutes to recover from that crawl I'm going to let him. Those are minutes and turns he's not attacking me.

I'm not reacting to the smoke just yet. I want to give it another turn or two and see how he's going to move his men in reaction to the smokescreen.

[BigDork]

Turn 16

Here comes the cavalry! Instead of the thunderous charge of horses though it's three halftracks. It would appear that Penry has some help. I'm definitely concerned about the halftracks with the 75mm guns. Suddenly my R35s are in some serious danger. Also the HE from those guns can cause some serious problems for my infantry.

To their credit my R35 crew near BN doesn't panic. They know they have the drop on the newly arrived Yank vehicles and that while the gun is a threat the halftracks themselves aren't well armored. Unfortunately the commander decides to use a HE shell instead of AP. Despite the direct hit there's no noticeable damage. Very disappointing. Later in the turn I do manage to cause one casualty from my MG before the halftrack drives out of sight of my tank.

Orders

I order my crippled R35 near BN to reverse out of sight. There is nothing he can do in this battle anymore and with the arrival of the halftracks it's time to retreat. I'm leaving my other R35 where it is for now. He's still in an excellent position to fire on the Americans. Until Penry gives me a good reason to retreat I'm not going to.

Of more concern is the smoke screen Penry is laying down in the woods near BS. That smoke is going to make it even more difficult for me to spot the infantry he's managed to move in. I've decided to reposition one of my infantry teams from near the barn over to the left where they can hopefully prevent the Americans from getting in behind my men.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

I thought your R35 got halftrack kills before with HE? Why would it suddenly become the wrong choice? I'd think AP would be likely to go clear through the halftrack, hurting only people and components more or less in the direct path. Bad "die roll" under the hood, perhaps, for this latest hit?

Is there a place you can put your damaged R35 so as to catch the American infantry coming out of your side of the smokescreen, yet not be under the guns of the halftracks?

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Is there a place you can put your damaged R35 so as to catch the American infantry coming out of your side of the smokescreen, yet not be under the guns of the halftracks?

There's no point. The "damage" isn't to the tank itself, it's to the commander. The commander does everything in that tank except drive it, and the driver can't/won't switch positions to perform firing tasks. The only reason BD left it where it in position was to draw fire from ineffective platforms, as it seemed to be doing. As soon as effective weapon systems can bring it under fire, it's just free points for Penry. I'm sure BD won't neglect its potential for disinformation if the situation becomes fluid enough for the toothless one to pretend to be effective in order to cause confustion at some later date.

[BigDork]

There's no point. The "damage" isn't to the tank itself, it's to the commander. The commander does everything in that tank except drive it, and the driver can't/won't switch positions to perform firing tasks. The only reason BD left it where it in position was to draw fire from ineffective platforms, as it seemed to be doing. As soon as effective weapon systems can bring it under fire, it's just free points for Penry. I'm sure BD won't neglect its potential for disinformation if the situation becomes fluid enough for the toothless one to pretend to be effective in order to cause confustion at some later date.

Exactly womble. Without the TC it's just a glorified paperweight. After the first couple turns it wasn't even drawing any fire from Penry, just sitting around looking menacing. I would have loved the chance to drive it around out of sight and let Penry guess if it was an operational tank or the useless one but that's not going to happen as you'll find out in my next update.

BigDork,

I thought your R35 got halftrack kills before with HE? Why would it suddenly become the wrong choice? I'd think AP would be likely to go clear through the halftrack, hurting only people and components more or less in the direct path. Bad "die roll" under the hood, perhaps, for this latest hit?

Is there a place you can put your damaged R35 so as to catch the American infantry coming out of your side of the smokescreen, yet not be under the guns of the halftracks?

Regards,

John Kettler

From the way it looked, my HE hit the gun shield or the armor protecting the driver. Since the blast from a 37mm round isn't that big it just left a scorch mark. Back on turn 11 I hit a halftrack with HE and didn't knock it out either. MGs have proven far more useful and efficient. Considering the shot that hit the halftrack last turn was coming straight on, an AP round would have run through the length of the vehicle probably destroying it and causing some pain. Oh well. I'll find another way to get rid of it.

[BigDork]

Turn 17

Well this was a painful minute though it could have been far worse.

The American halftracks started proving their worth to Penry. I had foreseen the danger to my commander-less tank last turn and tried to get him out of the line of fire. Unfortunately the driver didn't get out of there fast enough.

Over at BS my R35 is only slightly luckier. It suffers two hits but the tough little bugger keeps running. Unfortunately the optics are completely destroyed. Considering these tanks aren't all that great at spotting already, I'm considering this tank a loss. I'm going to order it to reverse deep into the woods where it should be safe. No sense in Penry getting free points.

The infantry right behind the tank is my FO coming into position. The infantry further back is my infantry team repositioning to the other side of the barn

My other R35 can be seen being knocked out in the background

Talk about a lucky smoke round! One of my men in the woods near BS just happened to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I hate casualties like that... it's such a waste of a life. He could at least have been laying down some fire on the Yanks or something.

[BigDork]

Turn 17 Orders

My FO is in place and calling in a 81mm mortar strike where some of the Americans have gathered up. It's a 6 minute wait though and I'm not sure they'll still be there by then. If I have to I can shift the fire if Penry starts going on the attack.

I have this bad feeling BN is soon to be attacked. The smoke is starting to get thick and with those halftracks now on the battlefield to suppress my men it makes sense. I've decided to relocate the infantry squad from Bridge Z02 to BN. They aren't doing much good so far back in the battlefield and the extra firepower could really make the difference when the Americans attack. They will be using the terrain and a stone wall to hopefully stay out danger as they make their way up the hill towards the barn.

[BigDork]

Turn 18

I definitely made the right decision in moving that extra infantry into BN. The Americans are a-comin'. It wasn't a full on rush but I spotted several halftracks and infantry maneuvering themselves in prep for the rush up the hill. I'm pretty sure it's going to be next turn and there's not a whole lot I can do to stop them.

My Breda team in the farm spots another infantry unit trying to sneak their way up to BS. However unlike the one squad that made it up these guys aren't as close to the edge of the map and have less terrain to hide behind. Unfortunate for them.

Orders

I have one more R35 at BS I'm going to try and move so it can provide some cover for BN. It's unlikely to make it in time though. He's deep in the woods at the moment and way out of position. About all I can really do right now is push that infantry from the bridge into BN as fast as possible and prepare to slog it out in the woods.

[BigDork]

Turn 19

The minute passes with little action happening. The expected attack on Barn North never materializes. Penry's halftracks sit in the same position, prepared to roll out but not. What could he possibly be waiting for?

Orders

Here's the overview of the battlefield. As you can see the smoke in front of BN is drifting off so whatever Penry hoped to gain from that is lost. The smoke near BS that would have obscured the infantry that made it in is likewise dissipating.

At the top of the map you can see my infantry that is relocating to BN from Bridge Z02. I'm thankful for Perny's delay because it gives my men extra time to get into position. They are going to be tired from the run up the hill so any extra time I can get to help them recover will be beneficial.

I've ordered my R35 near BS to hunt forward into the trees looking for American halftracks. I've not had great success against the halftracks with my tanks but in theory a R35 should be quite the menace.

Turn 20

1/3 of the battle is gone without much gain for the Americans to show. Penry did have a decent minute. He caused some pain and had a lot of luck.

The mortar unit I attempted to assault a while back came into play this turn. They started raining direct fire HE on one of my infantry teams at the Farm. With horrifying accuracy the landed round after round amongst my men. By the end of the turn my group was down to four broken men.

Two of Penry's halftracks come under attack by my forces but both survive unscathed. At the beginning of the turn one of my Breda MGs opens up on the M3 GMC but causes no casualties or noticeable damage to the halftrack. Near the end of the turn my hunting R35 spots one of the halftracks sitting near Bridge Z01. My tank scores a direct hit but again the TC uses a high explosive round which proves ineffective.

Orders

For the next turn I'm going to continue to have my R35 harass the Americans. If I can delay them another turn or two my barrage should catch them in the danger zone.

[BigDork]

Turn 21

Turn 21 turns out to be very explosive. Unfortunately most of the explosions are happening on or near my men.

One of the Yank M3 GMCs takes aim at my infantry near Barn South. Those 75mm HE rounds pack quite the wallop and my men pay the price for it. By the end of the turn this infantry group is reduced to only a few broken men.

At the Farm, Penry's mortar crew continues to rain down 60mm pain. Instead of firing on one of my infantry groups though the Americans started targeting the commander. If it's any solace to the family, he didn't feel a thing.

I almost have my chance for a big explosion but it wasn't to be. My luck in this battle has really changed. Penry definitely has the momentum at the moment. If this HE round had not soared just a bit high it would have been a bad day for Penry.

And just as the minute was ending there was the scream of an incoming round followed by an explosion near Bridge Z01. I'm unsure if it's one of my spotting round or a badly aimed spotting round of Penry's. Time will tell.

Orders

Caffè break! Wait, the American's don't stop for cappuccino? Alright then, neither will we. We hold the line and wait for reinforcements.

[John Kettler]

BigDork,

Does CMFI have the somewhat defanging direct fire mortar tweak in it that tones down the otherwise fearsome accuracy? Seems to me either Penry's mortars are way too accurate, your foxholes are too close together, or both. Console yourself with the knowledge treebursts would be even worse!

I do think it might be worthwhile notifying Phil or someone else about what looks to be an ammo selection glitch for the R35. If HE doesn't work, then the AI should switch forthwith to AP. Otherwise, your already delicate R35s are likely to be massacred when facing anything with a cannon, even when they hit first!

Regards,

John Kettler

[BigDork]

BigDork,

Does CMFI have the somewhat defanging direct fire mortar tweak in it that tones down the otherwise fearsome accuracy? Seems to me either Penry's mortars are way too accurate, your foxholes are too close together, or both. Console yourself with the knowledge treebursts would be even worse!

I do think it might be worthwhile notifying Phil or someone else about what looks to be an ammo selection glitch for the R35. If HE doesn't work, then the AI should switch forthwith to AP. Otherwise, your already delicate R35s are likely to be massacred when facing anything with a cannon, even when they hit first!

Regards,

John Kettler

Both are probably something that should be looked at honestly. It was mortar after mortar landing basically in the same location. I also definitely agree that the R35's use of HE against halftracks needs to be looked at. It's frustrating as a player to see the same results happening over and over when an AP round would have done the job far better.

Edit: I was going to go back in and do a bunch of screenshots on the mortars landing in turn 20 but I have H2HH set to Tidy and so it deleted that save. Fingers crossed Penry still has it.

Edit 2: Penry had the file! I'm on my way to bed but tomorrow I'll take a bunch of screenshots of the mortars impacting and we can have a good discussion about if it is too accurate. My vote is yes but I'm kind of biased as it's my guys getting blasted.

[BigDork]

Turn 22

The action in this battle has definitely been going in waves. Some minutes are hot, some are cold. This was a cold minute. The only real thing of note that happened was another spotting round fell in the plowed field near the bridge. I'm still unsure if it's mine falling short or Penry's.

As the turn ends I'm able to capture another round falling. So now I'm left wondering, is this American or Italian/German?

I also did not something peculiar as I was telling my men to keep doing what they've been doing... this GMC isn't manned! This is the vehicle that got shot up in turn 20. Is it possible I did more damage than I thought? Maybe the crew panicked and abandoned the halftrack. Guess I'll find out.

Turn 23

The spotting rounds that have been falling are definitely American. I actually think that Penry has two different mortar missions called in right now, one on BS and one on the farm. Two rounds land in front of each respective location as the turn plays out. The one near the farm unfortunately caused a couple more casualties. Penry is slowly chipping away at my men and if my reinforcements don't show up soon I may end up losing something.

Orders

I've ordered my men in BS to pull back closer to the barn. I'm hoping to avoid the brunt of his barrage there. The guys in the farm don't really have anywhere to fall back to so I'm just going to pray very, very hard for their well being in the coming turns.

[womble]

...mortar after mortar landing basically in the same location...

I can't tell what range we're looking at here. If it's sub-200m, I think 60mm crews were supposed to be able to drop their eggs "in a pickle barrel" at that sort of range, so such accuracy isn't surprising. I'd guess that Penry's using "Target" rather than "Target Light", though, so you don't have to suffer this level of pain for very long...

I also did not something peculiar as I was telling my men to keep doing what they've been doing... this GMC isn't manned! This is the vehicle that got shot up in turn 20. Is it possible I did more damage than I thought? Maybe the crew panicked and abandoned the halftrack. Guess I'll find out.

That certainly squares with the vulnerability of those "makeshift" TDs and Assault Guns on half track chassis that I've seen. They're a bit less squirrely under fire than transport halfies, but not much. If that MG had the GMC under fire for anywhere near a full minute, I totally wouldn't be surprised if the crew bailed. All you have to do now is get it killed before they recover and reman it! Even a mobility-kill with HE would be as good as a "destroyed", given the limited traverse of the tube.

[BigDork]

Here's a picture showing where all the mortars struck. We're talking at a range of about 195 meters. I suppose once they have it dialed in it wouldn't be too hard to just keep lobbing mortars at the same spot but I'm far from an expert on these kinds of things.